[leiafee]

The percentage off is no more than a couple of cans of fuel when applied to the handheld I'll be swapping out...The BMAA are waiving the mod fee for change of radio...

Dunno. Just know I had a bulk email saying so and refs to

http://www.bmaa.org/files/smm_102_2_3_a ... tercom.pdf (Initial install)

and

http://www.bmaa.org/files/til_119_decla ... o_type.pdf (Change)

Possibly the change was paperwork only anyway not a cost and they were just reminding us all? Or possibly the mod bit only refers to the intial install mod because while it's it's a handheld unit is is attached to an aerial mounted on the aircraft and powered from the aircraft electrics.

[davef77]

I wonder if they might let us in as a formation with me doing the radio?

That sounds like an excellent idea MM.

I was flying out of aberdeen on Saturday. I heard a microlight requesting transit through aberdeen class D airspace for himself and 5 other microlights in formation. No radio contacts from the others. There were en route to the Longside fly in via Stonehaven and Perterhead lanes. Clearance granted not above 2000 feet VFR.

That is normal practice for a formation flight.

The only question in my mind, if following standard operating procedures for formation flying, is what about the landing itself.

Many runways aren't big enough to allow formation landings and so common procedure is to break formation as you join, from an OHJ you break as you descend dead-side, and then do a stream landing. At this point each aeroplane is back to operating as an individual, although using formation callsigns.

e.g.

"Yellow formation 1 late downwind left-hand for 25"

"Yellow formation 2 downwind left-hand for 25"

etc.

So you should be allowed into airspace as a formation, but what about the non-radio landing at the end?

[MercianMarcus]

The only question in my mind, if following standard operating procedures for formation flying, is what about the landing itself.

Many runways aren't big enough to allow formation landings and so common procedure is to break formation as you join, from an OHJ you break as you descend dead-side, and then do a stream landing. At this point each aeroplane is back to operating as an individual, although using formation callsigns.

e.g.

"Yellow formation 1 late downwind left-hand for 25"

"Yellow formation 2 downwind left-hand for 25"

etc.

So you should be allowed into airspace as a formation, but what about the non-radio landing at the end?

The area at EMH is big enough for 2 helis to land without conflicting.

[The Mauler 2]

Having had an 8.33 spacing Trig fitted ( which lost me the pre-set frequencies from my King KY-97) what I can't understand is what is mean by the fact that .25 sets can't be used after 1/1/18.

The EASA requirement applies to use in controlled airspace. I read it that if in uncontrolled airspace I can communicate using the King Nav/Com, King don't do a 12v replacement and listen out on the Trig. i.e. I could talk to Stapleford tower, outside controlled airspace and maintain a listening watch with Stansted on the Trig.

Am I correct and anyway how would anybody tell which set was being used to transmit ?

[riverrock]

because to be in controlled airspace, you need permission, permission that is almost always obtained by radio. After 1/1/18, legally, you must use an 8.33 capable radio.

The expectation is that almost all ground stations in the UK will be moving to 8.33 spacing over 2018. If you have a well calibrated 25kHz radio, you might be able to transmit to 1/3 of stations (those with the middle channels of the 3 way splits), but you may struggle to listen to that middle channel, as people on the channels either side will be transmitting, which you wont be able to tune out.
The hope is that many stations will be left allocated to the middle part of their old frequency, but there is no guarantee of this - as more frequencies are required, so channels will be re-allocated.

[PaulB]

So what are all these extra frequencies going to be used for?

And is all the ground station equipment 8.33 ready?

Just curious.

[muffin]

The reality is that the aircraft band is actually well underused and you would be very unlucky if other people happened to be transmitting on either side of you just when you wanted to hear something. If you tune the aircraft band using an analogue receiver (i.e. one that has continuous tuning) and just spin the dial, you will hear very few stations at any one time. That is why the whole 8.33 thing is so ridiculous. When lack of frequencies has become a problem in other radio applications, the old 25khz channels have simply been split to 12.5 kHz spacing which is simpler to implement and also to understand.

[cockney steve]

@riverrock said

1/1/18, legally, you must use an 8.33 capable radio.

(my bold ) Which is not quite the same thing as " must communicate on 8.33"

The expectation is that almost all ground stations in the UK will be moving to 8.33 spacing over 2018.

So, what you're saying, is people have to spend a large amount of cash , time and inconvenience, implementing a mandate, which will have little or no use to the majority of UK GA, for another year?...how is that fair or reasonable?

Just like DAB radio, Digital T.V. R/c models, this is all about gathering frequency-blocks to flog off to private interests to shore-up a bankrupt exchequer.
When Cell-phones became mainstream, the infrastructure was in place first. the end-user bought their hardware and it was out-of -the -box usable.....tv? first set up your broadcasting equipment, then flog hardware to the punters......ditto, Radio.
General Aviators are being bent-over and shafted, yet again. There is no other hobby I can think of with such onerous burdens. Even shooting is lightly- legislated by comparison. (other than the kneejerk banning of handguns, with , AIUI arbitrary and inadequate valuations by our masters, on peoples' treasured possessions.

This has all the makings of another epic farce.

[Nomad63]

I think if you only have to look at the USA to realise that if a country where airfields are an order of magnitude more numerous than the UK are quite happy with 25khz spacing, then we are being done over (again)


Edited for Granma

[riverrock]

1/1/18, legally, you must use an 8.33 capable radio.

(my bold ) Which is not quite the same thing as " must communicate on 8.33"

You have miss-understood. All 8.33kHz radios can also listen with 25kHz spacing (even if it involves some menu gymnastics with one of the ICOMs). I was making the differentiation as London / Scottish Info, D&D and a very small number of other stations which use multi-lateration will still use 25kHz spacing.

The expectation is that almost all ground stations in the UK will be moving to 8.33 spacing over 2018.

So, what you're saying, is people have to spend a large amount of cash , time and inconvenience, implementing a mandate, which will have little or no use to the majority of UK GA, for another year?...how is that fair or reasonable?

Because the changes will likely happen throughout the year, with the expectation it will happen when licences are up for renewal. Airfields aren't being forced to change all at one time - its just the cost of having a 25kHz spacing triples, so it is expected airfields will vote with their wallets. So your nearest, or based at airfield could change 1st January or it could change 31st December, depending on when they need to buy spectrum for the next year. Your only warning will likely be NOTAM until the chart gets changed.

[riverrock]

I think if you only have to look at the USA to realise that if a country where airfields are an order of magnitude more numerous than the UK are quite happy with 25khz spacing, then we are being done over (again)

We have a higher density of airfields in England than in USA generally and London area is the busiest airspace in the world. On top of that, once you fly at higher levels, frequency allocations have to take into account all aircraft within line of sight who could be on the radio, which means you can't have the same frequency in Frankfurt and Luton.
All of these combine to make Europe the most frequency congested area, world wide.

[Nomad63]

Nah, doesn't convince me, by my estimation we have 116 different frequencies at 25khz spacing, so assuming lets say a 100 mile range before we start seriously interfereing I dont see how we could run out of numbers, we just dont have that many airfields (I know some use a couple of frequencies, but even then)

[Ben K]

Nah, doesn't convince me, by my estimation we have 116 different frequencies at 25khz spacing, so assuming lets say a 100 mile range before we start seriously interfereing I dont see how we could run out of numbers, we just dont have that many airfields (I know some use a couple of frequencies, but even then)

What about TMA sectors, area control? Plenty of those.

"A couple" is wrong. Bournemouth has, for example, Tower, Ground, Radar, ATIS. Other airfields have more.

You've also got company Operations frequencies. Safetycom. Parachuting frequencies. Gliding frequencies. And so on.....

It's not a conspiracy to screw over your average GA bimbler.

[Paul_Sengupta]

We have 720/760 such frequencies available though (though 121.5 isn't "available" as such).

[riverrock]

See https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/In ... 013018.pdf for full timeline (including that all ground stations must be 8.33 by the end of 2018).
Worth noting that airspace above FL195 has been 8.33 since 2008, yet there is still frequency congestion.