For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1553263
Apologist? Riiight.

Thanks so much for that. :evil:

Read it again, with your best comprehension hat on.

Or don't. I really no longer care

This is no longer an adult debate; it is you flinging baseless allegations of thought-crime at me.
GonzoEGLL liked this
#1553284
I want my 13-year-old daughter to power through the glass ceiling, confident that her gender will never compromise her ambition.


Yeah, good for you. Know what'll help with that? Keeping your trap shut to her about how weak and helpless you can't help thinking she is and how you believe her period is inevitably going to turn her into a dangerously emotional wreck every month for a huge swathe of her life.

Daft cow. Mind you her other articles on the Heil include such gems as "my lazy friends are making me look old by doing their slap and hair wrong and I told them as much" so I can't get terribly excited about her silly opinions.
ChampChump, Flyin'Dutch', kanga and 1 others liked this
#1553286
Dave W wrote: Deeply visceral opinions held for long periods of time don't change overnight; we should be encouraging people who want to change, not vilifying them for what they used to think.


We are clearly in tune here, Dave.

I think that it is important to think about what you want to achieve when you make a point. If what you actually want to do is to influence and change someone's opinion, then you will never achieve that by either insulting them or condemning them. What you need to do is argue logically why the view you have is a more reasonable one.

At worst, if you do this you will achieve nothing. At best, you will sow a small seed that will hopefully germinate over time. People have views that are both formed from their experience, but also heavily influenced by upbringing and environment, and the moral framework of that time. In the case of the lady who wrote the article, you can tell that the seed has germinated, but hasn't yet fully grown into true enlightenment. Why I personally consider the article was an interesting one was because it highlighted the honest struggle most of us go through when we know that our own moral compass needs a swing, but we find it genuinely difficult to eradicate our long held stereotypes.

If, though, on the other hand you choose to belittle, undermine or insult this growth process, you are almost never going to change opinion. Indeed, you are going to shut the door on the very open mindedness you purport to believe in. When you do this from a pulpit of moral superiority, you make your task doubly impossible.

One of the reasons why we have Trump in the White House and we have Brexit is because the so called liberal minded intellectuals have proved unable to argue their case well. Instead, they have sunk to insults, and shown themselves in practice to be, at times, extremely close minded. People don't like their thoughts and opinions being trampled all over, and they then shut themselves off. Worse still, such insults close down the debate, and it is only through that debate that you plant those seeds.

That people read this lady's open and honest thoughts as misogynistic is unfortunate, and the sign of a closed mind. Such strong condemnation shuts down the debate that will actually bring her to her new moral framework. Or, for that matter, others. Most people don't have the courage that it takes to confront moral superiority and political correctness. In this case, she has done just that, and opened herself to the inevitable barrage of holier than thou tosh. That takes a lot more guts that simply calling her a misogynist and adding a few throwing up emoticons in for good measure.

It is a sad fact of life that often the people that claim to be the most liberal and open minded with that superior moral compass are often the most autocratic, controlling, bullying and closed minded of all.
Dave W, lobstaboy, Norjet and 7 others liked this
#1553297
I'm sorry Paul but what you wrote is utter, utter rubbish. To claim we have Trump in the White House because apparently "so called liberal minded intellectuals have proved unable to argue their case well" is complete nonsense.

The "liberal minded intellectuals" wrote many and varied cogent arguments against Trump and his policies. But they were shouted down by a right wing dominated media who consider that stating the same lies again and again is the same as having proof. And this has continued after he got into office. Alt-facts and fake news indeed.

This woman's views are clearly misogynistic (have you actually looked up the definition?, I assume not) And if views go unchallenged people think they're ok.

Have you ever had a friend make a racist, sexist or other off-colour comment and let it go? If you have, and most of us have at some point, then you're reinforcing their beliefs. Try and be a better person and inform someone if you think they're views are unacceptable. You never know, you mind make the world a slightly better place to live in.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1553299
You have completely misrepresented what @Paultheparaglider has written. He has condoned none of those things.

Seems I was incorrect about the clarity. :(
Paultheparaglider liked this
#1553300
And Dave W, as far as someone having a "natural human characteristic" of being misogynistic just beggars belief. Do you you really think that was something she was born with?

The MLK words that Obama tweeted recently put it very well.
"No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin or his background or his religion"

This stuff is taught, and it can be un-taught (if that's a word!)
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553301
karlbown wrote:And Dave W, as far as someone having a "natural human characteristic" of being misogynistic just beggars belief. Do you you really think that was something she was born with?


READ IT AGAIN!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Then tell me, with contextual quotes and references, where I said any of that.

If you are going to impugn my morals, at least try and think about what I actually wrote rather than just skimming it as you evidently did.

karlbown wrote:This stuff is taught, and it can be un-taught (if that's a word!)


So you do get the point, even if only by accident.
Last edited by Dave W on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1553305
I do wonder if some of the posters on this thread have actually read and understood the article in question.

Let's be clear, it does not say "women should not be pilots", it's a discussion about one woman's unexpected reaction to discovering that the captain of her commercial flight was female, and how this has caused her some soul searching.

Incidentally I recently heard the pilot of a Tornado talking to the same LARS unit as me. Both voices were female. That gave me pause for thought, so I guess I must be misogynistic?
Paultheparaglider liked this
#1553316
karlbown wrote:I'm sorry Paul but what you wrote is utter, utter rubbish. To claim we have Trump in the White House because apparently "so called liberal minded intellectuals have proved unable to argue their case well" is complete nonsense.

The "liberal minded intellectuals" wrote many and varied cogent arguments against Trump and his policies. But they were shouted down by a right wing dominated media who consider that stating the same lies again and again is the same as having proof. And this has continued after he got into office. Alt-facts and fake news indeed.



These things are rarely black or white, and there is some truth in what you say.

Here is an interesting argument from a Trump critic, though. He is arguing along similar lines to me:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... rals-sneer
Last edited by Paultheparaglider on Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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