[Cub]

And this will be acceptable to the CAA in a CofA type?

I have no idea. I thought that was the combination you were describing?

[T67M]

Given how hard it is to get certified GPS sources connected to certified transponders in certified aircraft approved by The Authorities, I suspect using a PAW as the position source will be nearly impossible.

[peter272]

And this will be acceptable to the CAA in a CofA type?

I have no idea. I thought that was the combination you were describing?

It is but I read elsewhere that linking an approved transponder to an ADSB-out source in a CofA type is a major mod - even though it is just a simple connection.

Also, it would appear that this is a CAA approval and not necessarily approved outside the Uk? Is that right?

[PaulB]

It is but I read elsewhere that linking an approved transponder to an ADSB-out source in a CofA type is a major mod - even though it is just a simple connection.

Also, it would appear that this is a CAA approval and not necessarily approved outside the Uk? Is that right?

In your original post you asked for a Ladybird book of electronic conspicuity. I can't do that but I can share my Mickey Mouse understanding which will leave some questions for others.

All this is as I understand it....

- ADS-B out relies on a txpdr being connected to a certified source of GPS enabling the txpdr not only to transmit modes A (the squawk code), C (the alt) and S (info about aircraft e.g. Call sign, hex ID) but also positional information derived from the connected GPS. There have been trials in permit land with the use of non-certified GPS and perhaps unsurprisingly, the results seemed to be good). Where this leaves uncertified GPS seems unclear. I believe that a mod is required for what is essentially a wire between GPS & txpdr

The above makes you visible to aircraft and ground stations that can read that information. However, you would still need something to allow you to receive & display the ADS-B out transmissions of other aircraft (so you can see them). That is what PAW allows you to do when connected to a system such as SkyDemon or other planning /Nav system.

So if you had the mod so that you could transmit ADS-B out *and* had PAW/SD you would have the best of both worlds.... sort of.

What you wouldn't have is this new weather overlay that relies on a separate system transmitting on a different frequency as PAW can't receive that (yet????)

There's something called UAvionix SkyEcho which really does seem to offer it all as (again AIUI) can both transmit and receive the ADS-B bits & do the new weather bits.

I'm not sure where the certifications comes in as I'm not sure that SkyEcho is a fixed installation. Also there was an issue raised about SkyEcho transmitting and your txpdr also transmitting - not sure if that's been resolved yet.

Then there's the elephant in the room of drones and gliders and all those aeroplanes that have no electric sources, or no space to fit such devices. If they don't play ball then we'll still be reliant on see and avoid.

[johnm]

•Simultaneous transmissions from a GA aircraft with Mode S and a conspicuity device (meeting the criteria in CAP1391). Volunteers from the GA communities are assisting with this trial.

This is a real winner for those of us with Garmin GTX330 without extended squitter and it if we just have to meet the 1391 criteria as opposed to an approval that we meet it then we're good to go anytime

[Shoestring Flyer]

uAvionix-Ramsey.
I know I keep banging on about this but for those of us who have already got ADS-B out what has happened to pingBuddy for ADS-B in?
Is pingBuddy dead?

[skydriller]

It is going to be very important to emphasise that new and prospective purchasers of transponders really need to ensure they enable the full functionality of their new shiny box by switching on ADS-B out.

But as I understand it, this is not possible for many, many people with EASA certified aeroplanes. Our aeroclub has Robins with panel GPS & New Trig Mode S/ADSB transponders, but I know they arent connected...What the CAA should be doing is lobbying EASA about this, as someone said elsewhere, what is the S for?

Otherwise, I see this UK CAA announcement as a positive step.

Regards, SD..

[G-BLEW]

And this will be acceptable to the CAA in a CofA type?

I have no idea. I thought that was the combination you were describing?

It is but I read elsewhere that linking an approved transponder to an ADSB-out source in a CofA type is a major mod - even though it is just a simple connection.

Also, it would appear that this is a CAA approval and not necessarily approved outside the Uk? Is that right?

Peter, reading the CAA release it says

…The CAA is already working with the GA community and industry to develop an integrated electronic surveillance solution offering both airborne and ground environment benefits…To help encourage ADS-B take-up by the GA community, the CAA has today launched a survey seeking information on the types of devices private pilots already use and what they would prefer to use in future…A number of trials will also be taking place…

My take on that is that it is too early to think in terms of specifics, but that we can perhaps see a general direction. My guess (and that's all it is), is that to get maximum benefit a certified GPS source will be needed, but I also think/hope that increased adoption will lead to lower cost approved GPS modules, and easier, quicker and cheaper approvals.

Ian

[Bob Upanddown]

I think the Flyer tweet says it all. The "future of Electronic Conspicuity" really means Mandatory Electronic Conspicuity.

Unfortunately, I can’t see this would work unless everyone participates but, as we know, people don’t turn their transponders on so mandating Electronic Conspicuity would be the only way if the long term plan is to remove LARS services.

All this talk of cheap ADS-B kit worries me. I think having inaccurate GPS position is a danger. I use SD on a very cheap tablet with an internal GPS receiver and it is always telling me that I am vertically infringing LTMA when I am not. If ADS-B out is equally inaccurate, I can see me getting a sack full of letters from the CAA accusing me of infringing when I am not. So that means fiting yet another transponder (4th in 18 years) with ADS-B out.

I can see and agree with the argument for a lightweight and portable unit (if it would help me see flex-wings) but surely there is going t be a line drawn somewhere in relation to certified aircraft having a certified ADS-B out unit properly installed??

The other problem I see is that the CAA seems to be going alone. Australia has, I believe, gone down a different ADS-B route to the USA and UK seems to be going down another (if we rely on uncertified or portable kit). It is a shame we can’t just go down the USA route and follow them instead of creating our own path.

Six questions, not very probing ones, on survey monkey don’t equal consultation with GA in my book (but, judging by the 8.33 debacle, CAA thinks it does) so I hope there are ways we can express out views to the CAA.

[Rod1]

“There have been trials in permit land with the use of non-certified GPS and perhaps unsurprisingly, the results seemed to be good). Where this leaves uncertified GPS seems unclear. “

As part of FASVIG I helped reach an agreement for LAA & BMAA permit aircraft to use uncertified GPS to do ADS-b out. This is a done deal, all the trials etc are finished. There is an established system for approval which is free and only involves your inspector and a test using a PilotAware. If you have a none Garmin transponder and a GPS (PilotAware will do this) then the cost of ADS-b out is likely to be £10 for a bit of RS232 cable – please go do

Rod1

[shuttle]

All this talk of cheap ADS-B kit worries me. I think having inaccurate GPS position is a danger. I use SD on a very cheap tablet with an internal GPS receiver and it is always telling me that I am vertically infringing LTMA when I am not. If ADS-B out is equally inaccurate, I can see me getting a sack full of letters from the CAA accusing me of infringing when I am not. So that means fiting yet another transponder (4th in 18 years) with ADS-B out.

Bob,
Do you input the QNH to your Skydemon? I suspect not. I strongly doubt your GPS is inaccurate. It is just that your GPS altitude readout on SD is not corrected for air pressure. Just the same as you not setting the QNH correctly on your Altimeter. Also, read up on GPS geoid altitude vs. Altitude above sealevel. They differ slightly. There was a thread here addressing this recently. Ground systems utilising GPS will have to account for geoid vs sealevel discrepancies.

Lowlevel airspace vertical boundaries below transition altitude are all based on altitude adjusted for current air pressure.

Transponders all assume a standard 1013 pressure and the receiving groundstations know and adjust for that against current air pressure. ADS-B transceiver units typically have a barometer input to correct the GPS altitude for atmospheric pressure.

Please read the report on the NATS trial of non-certified GPS ADS-B. The results showed that non-certified GPS were just as accurate as certified GPS.

http://nats.aero/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/GA-ADS-B-GPS-Trial-report.pdf

A quote from the Executive Summary of this report:

Based on the results of this trial, it can be seen that the quality of non-certified GPS is sufficient for use in enhancing visual acquisition / electronic conspicuity of general aviation. There was no identified impact on the current or planned UK ATC use of 1090MHz / regulated uses of surveillance on 1090MHz, although it makes sense to ensure some form of periodic monitoring of installations to ensure transmission remain of suitable quality.

[kanga]

..

And this will be acceptable to the CAA in a CofA type?

as long as it's only Velcro'd in ?

[johnm]

Do you input the QNH to your Skydemon?

Is this even possible??

[shuttle]

Do you input the QNH to your Skydemon?

Is this even possible??

Exactly!

[patowalker]

AFAIK, which is not very much at all, French, Dutch, Irish, Italian, US, Canadian and Saudi ANSPs are evaluating space based ADS-B, which saves on terrestial infrastructure. Does anybody know if CAA/NATS plan to look at this technology?