Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1547740
I've just been reviewing LBA's proposed airspace changes (http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/m ... ssue-2.pdf page 33)

I can't work out if this is unnecessarily complex, or a genuine attempt to minimise the impact of the proposed CTA .... but a CTA split into 15 different bits, with different altitudes dependent upon the time of day, I'm struggling to follow it sat at home in peace and quiet, let alone work out whilst flying the plane.

Personally I think I'd just prefer simpler airspace, and an open door policy to transits like Doncaster has.

Can't help thinking that it's inefficient that Doncaster and Leeds operate largely independently, and merging into some sort of TMA would be more efficient - but unlikely to happen given different ownership.
By callump
#1547757
It's quite interesting they've listed a load of incidents over the last 10 years which occurred in their airspace with a tenuous link to insufficient volume of airspace. They appear to be mostly attributed to ATC error (e.g. not knowing ACC uses 5 miles, vectoring outside CAS into conflict with military aircraft, clearing aircraft for take off with a 737 on 2.5nm final, co-ordination errors, etc etc) and some pilot error (level busts and CAS infringement).
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1547759
I suspect that if anybody was challenged to propose an airspace change that would GUARANTEE regular infringements, the very first thing they would consider would be:

rikur_ wrote:... different altitudes dependent upon the time of day.
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1547768
Leeds have kept all this fairly low key.

Much disquiet at Sherburn about the effect on the local training area, and also for soaring operations at Burn.

There is a strong suspicion that LBA may be hoping to encourage night freight operations with the additional CAS at night.

That would go down well with some of the wealthier residents on the south side of `Harrogate....not.
User avatar
By gasman
#1547786
rikur_ wrote:I've just been reviewing LBA's proposed airspace changes (http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/m ... ssue-2.pdf page 33

Can't help thinking that it's inefficient that Doncaster and Leeds operate largely independently, and merging into some sort of TMA would be more efficient - but unlikely to happen given different ownership.


Leeds and Doncaster have very different attitudes to ATC provision: Doncaster will open our flight plans, provide ATSOCAS and are very helpful with transits - the exact opposite to Leeds (this is despite their head of ATC stating publically that they were "GA friendly").

The proposed airspace design is a dogs dinner that is guaranteed to cause more infringments.

G-XLTG (Sherburn based).
User avatar
By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1547788
Different segments with different base levels depending on the time of the day?!?

Golly.... :shock:
User avatar
By Rob P
#1547789
Tell me it doesn't really propose that the base of the CAS bobs up and down depending on the time of day?

What could possibly go wrong?

Rob P

Edit: Damn, too slow.
By G-JWTP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1547793
flybymike wrote:Leeds have kept all this fairly low key.

Much disquiet at Sherburn about the effect on the local training area, and also for soaring operations at Burn.

There is a strong suspicion that LBA may be hoping to encourage night freight operations with the additional CAS at night.

That would go down well with some of the wealthier residents on the south side of `Harrogate....not.



Why would you want more CAS at night?

Virtually the only things in the sky at 01.00 is CAT/freight.

Owls and bats excluded ( other wildlife is also available).

G-JWTP
User avatar
By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1547799
Does anyone know if anyone is collating a GA response to this - or are we all going to separately chip in our ideas and suggestions, so they can use the defence "there wasn't a consensus amongst GA users...."

G-JWTP wrote:Why would you want more CAS at night?

Virtually the only things in the sky at 01.00 is CAT/freight.

Whilst that might be what they are hoping for - I'd be surprised if they were successful at becoming a night-time freight hub - the airport's simply not well enough connected to anything.
Doncaster however is 24x7 ops with a direct link to the M18.
#1547848
Yes, the road infrastructure to LBA is pretty poor. There's only one major trunk road up to the terminal, although there is a large storage depot just across from the terminal building. It's a long way to the M1 and the M62 from the airport.

I don't think the residents of Harrogate need worry about noise because the existing commercial tracks seldom go over Harrogate - at least not at low level - and the proposed new ones will be fairly high at that point....it's the residents of Otley, Ilkley and Horsforth who should be more concerned about any intensification of night ops.

I can understand why Sherburn Aero Club in unhappy with the new airspace proposals. The airspace grab to the south east will impact on the existing Southern Training Area south of the M62 up to 6000feet.
#1547880
flybymike wrote:Leeds have kept all this fairly low key.

Much disquiet at Sherburn about the effect on the local training area, and also for soaring operations at Burn.

There is a strong suspicion that LBA may be hoping to encourage night freight operations with the additional CAS at night.

That would go down well with some of the wealthier residents on the south side of `Harrogate....not.


I resemble that comment - pardon.... :mrgreen: