[Rob L]

Perhaps USA trained pilot where a left downwind entry is standard?

I fly quite often in the USA and that is not a standard join. A 45 degree to downwind is. If they join from the opposite side to the "pattern" (i.e. from what we in the UK would call the dead side), then they route overhead before descending to join on the 45. But none of that is what you describe, unless I fly at "other" USA airfields than you

Rob

[Talkdownman]

SERA.3225

Operation on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome

An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:

(a) observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;

(b) conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;

(c) except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;

(d) except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.

What is wrong with 'conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation' ?

Is it too much to ask?

[Full Metal Jackass]

SERA.3225

Operation on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome

An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:

(a) observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;

(b) conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;

(c) except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;

(d) except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.

What is wrong with 'conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation' ?

Is it too much to ask?

Sorry, I don't see what you're getting at, after all, that's what he did.... by avoiding the pattern of traffic he was in compliance.... or am I missing something.....

[Lefty]

The OP suggests that the normal accepted practice at that airfield is an overhead join. Therefore doing anything else is NOT conforming with the accepted practice at that airfield.

The big issue here is the pushing in - and disrupting / inconveniencing the other cct traffic.

At my home airfield we have everything from Cub's - through Cirrus to super high performance aerobatic a/c in the circuit at the same time - and all work reasonably well. Even the high speed machines are easily capable of flying a circuit at 90kts, which is the typical speed of the based training fleet. I believe that in a busy circuit, good airmanship suggests that a/c should if possible fly at the same speed as the majority of cct users. It can be very distressing to a student to have another a/c come rocketing past them at nearly twice their speed. Students haven't yet built up the ability to judge a/c speeds and trajectories, so any a/c coming close to them at high speed will undoubtedly upset them.

A lot can be achieved by good communications. For example if a very high speed a/c were to radio thier intentions to the other cct traffic as a request, then this could avoid a lot of potential anxst and distress.

[mpk]

OP - was this White Waltham today? Where a moron descended live side in front of me. On final I see an aircraft in my 2 o'clock cutting in and eventually hear 'going around' and him then climb back into the o/h. Someone else came on and said they thought he was live side. Naturally is climb back up was then into those on the crosswind.

[Trent772]

OP - was this White Waltham today? .

Not unless Stockport has moved 150 miles south.....

Let's guess Manc City International !

[Big Dex]

If it's Barton we're talking about, the OHJ can be a pain, as if routing from the south you leave the low level route at normally 1000-1200', and then have to immediately climb to 1800' to then descend back to 1000'. Because of this, if the circuit is quiet (as in empty or no more than one aircraft at a known position), I do often join downwind or straight in, depending on the runway in use.

[foxmoth]

Sounds like Barton, if things are quiet non overhead joins are fine but obviously on this occasion it was not and this guys actions were at the least rude. I fly one of the faster machines at Barton and I will sometimes do other than an OHJ and may even cut ahead of another aircraft, but see it very much my responsibility to ensure I do not interfere with their circuit, if this guy had to extend his downwind he certainly was not doing this as it would affect the person he had overtaken.

[Jetblu]

What's all the noise about. North Weald traffic ranges from microlight-2 seat home builds through to high performance single/multi piston/turbine/jet.
It's not uncommon to be overtaken by a Spit or Mustang.
A good pilot will adapt to the challenges presented.

....and there is no overhead join.
It works well.

[chevvron]

Perhaps USA trained pilot where a left downwind entry is standard?

I fly quite often in the USA and that is not a standard join. A 45 degree to downwind is. If they join from the opposite side to the "pattern" (i.e. from what we in the UK would call the dead side), then they route overhead before descending to join on the 45. But none of that is what you describe, unless I fly at "other" USA airfields than you

Rob

When I checked out at Denham back in the 70s, a 45 degree join was advocated as there can be no overhead join due to Northolt arrivals/departures.
I did this one busy sunday and reported downwind, then someone else chipped in and ruefully said 'I saw you do that, you cut in ahead of me'.
In fact I was behind this guy and it was someone else who had 'cut in' ahead of him without a radio call .

[foxmoth]

What's all the noise about.

I dont think it is so much the fact that he did a non standard join or overtook, rather the way he did it.

[AlanB]

Join however you want (airfield limitations permitting), just don't hit anyone else, and don't cut anyone else up, as that is bad manners. If you are a resident at an airfield, you will soon get to know the accepted 'tradition'. At our field, you can join OH, dead side, final, base, downwind and I'll normally use any one of these joins depending on cct traffic.

PS I like the US 45 deg join. Allows you to fit in with traffic well and adjust your circuit to either enter in front or behind other traffic, or widen the circuit out if you need more room.

[Ikarus]

Avtur , any idea what time you witnessed this yesterday

[chevvron]

What is wrong with 'conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation' ?

Is it too much to ask?

As I mentioned, I checked out at Denham in the '70s. In those days, to get max runway length, they had a runway 05/23 which ran from the NE corner to the golf course and was left hand on 23 as well as 07/25 which had lights and was right hand on 25.
Runway in use 23 with several in the circuit/arriving/departing. I took off and at about 300ft a single Comanche overtook on my left and disappeared under my nose then re-appeared to the right apparently doing a right hand circuit on 25. I duly turned left and then heard the CFI, Clive Kerr, broadcast that there appeared to be an aircraft which was doing a right hand circuit opposite direction to everybody else.
There was no radio call from this errant aircraft and I cleared the circuit for an hour so if anything further transpired I don't know, but had he observed the other traffic, he would surely have realised he was not conforming with the pattern.

[NorthSouth]

No-one's mentioned students. When people cut into a circuit that's being used by students it can be a major increase in their workload or, as often happens, a major surprise to them when the RT was already exceeding their capacity and all of a sudden someone else appears in front of them. That has safety implications.
It can also happen with, shall we say, more mature pilots who have lost the ability to construct a traffic picture from the RT chat and simply blunder in completely unaware of the havoc they're causing behind them.
When there's a mix of traffic (eg microlights/helicopters/fixed wing) it's often a good idea to have separate circuits to accommodate the differences in speed etc.