Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1526888
Gertie wrote:I had a "squawk and standby" today from Norwich. It was quite clear he didn't expect me to read back because he immediately started talking to someone else. (As a separate, new, transmission, without "break break".)


That seems perfectly reasonable to me. For many clearances, the readback is the only verification the controller gets. But for the squawk, the digits will appear on the screen. I can't see a plausible way it goes badly wrong. If the right aircraft selects the wrong code, or if the wrong aircraft changes code, the controller should be able to see it and intervene. The new aircraft will not be identified until the conversation continues.

On a related note, Southend identified me on Mode S flight ID yesterday, the first time that has happened to me.
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1526893
GolfHotel wrote:shirley if he wanted you to shut up and thought you might blabber on then the "and standby" twer not superflowerviouse. twer it?

except, in the context of the original question, there does seem to be genuine confusion as to which takes precedence, the standard requirement to read-back a squawk, or the standby instruction.
I admit the 'say again callsign and standby' is not really ambiguous
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1526894
Blimey there's some pantie-twisting pedantry going on here.

Wouldn't anyone just interpret it as 'Read back the squawk, set it, and shut up until I get back to you' ?
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#1526900
I still think it is unprofessional, and unnecessary.

It's shoddy enough to move the original poster to question it.

It should not be difficult to deal with an initial call properly and completely with undivided attention.

Either deal with it properly, or defer it properly.

It's called Good Customer Service.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1526903
I'm clearly more thick-skinned, as I really can't see the customer service problem with a busy controller (as presumably that was the circumstance) saying what was said.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1526914
rikur_ wrote:I admit the 'say again callsign and standby' is not really ambiguous


But it is.

Does the "...and..." in that phrase mean:

(a) "set it, readback i.a.w. CAP413 then shutup"
or;
(b) "set it, then shutup (NB: I wish you to ignore SOP in this unusual instance, but I don't intend to explicitly tell you that)"

If anyone is planning on answering that question, feel free to parse the phrase as part of your answer. ;)

GrahamB wrote:Wouldn't anyone just interpret it as 'Read back the squawk, set it, and shut up until I get back to you' ?


Clearly not - the differing interpretations on this thread show that.

IMO I think the poorest ATCO behaviour described in this thread is this:

Gertie wrote:I had a "squawk and standby" today from Norwich. It was quite clear he didn't expect me to read back because he immediately started talking to someone else. (As a separate, new, transmission, without "break break".)



Incidentally:
Blimey there's some pantie-twisting pedantry going on here.


Standard phraseology and required readbacks have been developed over decades for reasons of safety, and there's more than enough accident and incident history to make it evident that it's not "pantie-twisting pedantry" to object when a clear requirement is side-stepped for no clear reason; especially when it results in confusion, as in this case.

Edit: (To add the relevant reference). CAP413 says very clearly at para. 2.69:

CAP413 wrote:The ATS messages listed below are to be read back in full by the pilot/
driver. If a readback is not received the pilot/driver will be asked to do
so. Similarly, the pilot/ driver is expected to request that instructions are
repeated or clarified if any are not fully understood.
Taxi/Towing Instructions
Level Instructions
Heading Instructions
Speed Instructions
Airways or Route Clearances
Approach Clearances
Runway-in-Use
Clearance to Enter, Land On, Take-Off On, Backtrack, Cross, or Hold
Short of any Active Runway

SSR Operating Instructions
Altimeter Settings, including units when value is below 1000
hectopascals
VDF Information
Frequency Changes
Type of ATS Service
Transition Levels


There appears to be no phraseology within CAP413 for an ATCO to use to inform the pilot that a particular readback is not required. Is there something like that within the MATS document set?
Last edited by Dave W on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Talkdownman liked this
#1526941
Dave W wrote:
There appears to be no phraseology within CAP413 for an ATCO to use to inform the pilot that a particular readback is not required. Is there something like that within the MATS document set?

Not in the UK, but I've heard controllers in the USA say 'ident to acknowledge' then they continue talking to someone else.
#1526962
You get this quite often in the airways around London - it's so damn busy you can hardly get a word in edgeways! I was under the impression that 'and standby' meant shut up, especially when they say it and then go directly to someone else. They usually get back to you after a few minutes :)