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Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:06 am
by fattony
I had always thought that IAPs were prohibited in the UK unless ATC was in place at the airfield - mainly due to stuff I read on here and other forums. However,
CAP 797 seems to suggest otherwise. In particular, it talks about FISOs providing an air traffic service to aircraft conducting instrument approaches on page 70 paragraph 8.11, page 84 paragraph 8.87 and section 12 on page 99.
Section 12 of CAP 797 mentions
CAP 1122, which is called "Application for instrument approach procedures to aerodromes without an instrument runway and/or approach control". That also seems to suggest ATC isn't mandatory for an instrument approach.
So, my question: why don't we have IAPs without full ATC? Or am I simply misinformed?
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:52 am
by Iceman
We do, there are several in Scotland already, e.g., the beach at Barra has an LPV approach.
Iceman
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:56 am
by riverrock
Some of the commercial, small Scottish airports have IAPs with FISOs such as Barra, Campbelltown,
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:14 pm
by joe-fbs
But, AIUI, having researched this for work a few months ago, limited to approved users where it is a community service operation (or words to that effect).
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:59 pm
by xtophe
There are some ACP for instrument approach at Blackbushe, Halfpenny Green, Wycombe, Sherburn listed on the CAA permanent airspace change page.
And Lands End got approaches with only Tower
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:10 pm
by Iceman
joe-fbs wrote:But, AIUI, having researched this for work a few months ago, limited to approved users where it is a community service operation (or words to that effect).
There is nothing in the AIP entry / plates for Barra, for instance, that indicates such a restriction.
Iceman
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:22 pm
by Elecy
There is a comment "Use of RNAV procedure at this aerodrome restricted to Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd - Approved Operators only." on the approach plate for Barra.
Mark
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:38 pm
by chevvron
fattony wrote:So, my question: why don't we have IAPs without full ATC? Or am I simply misinformed?
Money.
First you have to get it designed by an approved iap design company,(no you can't do a diy design) then you have to get it approved by the CAA along with a 'Safety Case' to ensure f'rinstance that you don't get more than one pilot trying to fly the approach at a time and procedures to ensure the approach does not become dangerous if the guidance signal is lost, plus a missed approach procedure usually involving another type of navaid.
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:09 pm
by Iceman
Elecy wrote:There is a comment "Use of RNAV procedure at this aerodrome restricted to Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd - Approved Operators only." on the approach plate for Barra.
Mark
Oh yes, just spotted it.
Iceman
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:29 pm
by CloudHound
When employed by the CAA, I helped develop the policy leading to publishing CAP1122.
It took years to accomplish starting with the LNAV trial at Shoreham. The availability of European funding has helped accelerate the introduction of LPV approaches but there is still much work to do.
There are challenges to achieving approval at AFISO units not part of Scottish Public Service Obligated routes under EU Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 but it should be possible under current CAA Policy.
I'm one of a very small number helping some organisations make real progress towards the establishment of RNAV(GNSS) IAPs, though I won't be naming them here.
Should any forumites need more info feel free to pm me.
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:52 pm
by ChrisRowland
chevvron wrote:fattony wrote:So, my question: why don't we have IAPs without full ATC? Or am I simply misinformed?
Money.
First you have to get it designed by an approved iap design company,(no you can't do a diy design) then you have to get it approved by the CAA along with a 'Safety Case' to ensure f'rinstance that you don't get more than one pilot trying to fly the approach at a time and procedures to ensure the approach does not become dangerous if the guidance signal is lost, plus a missed approach procedure usually involving another type of navaid.
An approach is really nothing more than defining a descending line that follows the extended centre line of the runway and intersects it at the threshold. Given GPS, writing some software to produce a pseudo ILS to guide you along that line isn't difficult. The GPS in my phone is good enough to show what side of the road I'm driving on and, while it's not quite so good in height, is still pretty good. I could write an app for my phone that directed me to a runway and, with a minimum of something like 500' QFE, should give time to sort out a sensible visual landing. The failed approach procedure consists of climbing to MSA and going somewhere sensible.
I realise that this doesn't cover everything and would be illegal but how many people's lives could have been saved with something like this? I can think of five in the last year or so.
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:07 pm
by Josh
There is an App that does that. It's called GPS ILS, and one of its biggest advocates wrote off his aircraft in **** IFR conditions in the Scillies and may or may not have been using it at the time.
It is my strong view that pilots conducting DIY approaches in any form Are auditioning for a Darwin Award.
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:25 pm
by Gertie
ChrisRowland wrote:I realise that this doesn't cover everything and would be illegal but how many people's lives could have been saved with something like this?
And how many have been lost by using something like this?
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:37 pm
by ChrisRowland
Gertie wrote:ChrisRowland wrote:I realise that this doesn't cover everything and would be illegal but how many people's lives could have been saved with something like this?
And how many have been lost by using something like this?
Tell us how many you think.
The guy at the Scillies seems to have ended up coming in far too fast, possibly downwind. Would any ILS approach would have compensated for that?
Re: Instrument Approaches without ATC
PostPosted:Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:21 pm
by chevvron
[quote="ChrisRowland"
An approach is really nothing more than defining a descending line that follows the extended centre line of the runway and intersects it at the threshold. Given GPS, writing some software to produce a pseudo ILS to guide you along that line isn't difficult. The GPS in my phone is good enough to show what side of the road I'm driving on and, while it's not quite so good in height, is still pretty good. I could write an app for my phone that directed me to a runway and, with a minimum of something like 500' QFE, should give time to sort out a sensible visual landing. The failed approach procedure consists of climbing to MSA and going somewhere sensible.
[/quote]
And following a line you have drawn guarantees the necessary terrain clearance does it?