[GolfHotel]

You have to remember you are talking inexperienced PPLs here and I can think of LOADS of ways this can happen - just one quick example, Northerly departure to head South, all reports South are great and looking out the window to the South it looks good so departs not realising there is low cloud over the hills to the North!
I still say thisis where you need to have been taught situational awareness, hopefully this should keep you out of the situation anyway, but having got into it will then tell you what to do having got into it!

How much experience do you think a PPL needs to look North when taking off to the North?
Do you think the inexperienced PPL will need more or less experience to spot when the hills to the north are covered in cloud, when they have learned to look where they are going?

[foxmoth]

When the forecast to the South is good, actuals for all airfields nearby to the South are 2,000' + cloudbase and even where you are is giving a 1500' base it is easy to decide to go, you then take off thinking you will turn before the weather on the hills but it is lower than you think - as someone that flies with pilots of all sorts of ability and experience I know this is far from an unlikely scenario, and then all sorts of unexpected actions happen!

[GolfHotel]

When the forecast to the South is good, actuals for all airfields nearby to the South are 2,000' + cloudbase and even where you are is giving a 1500' base it is easy to decide to go, you then take off thinking you will turn before the weather on the hills but it is lower than you think - as someone that flies with pilots of all sorts of ability and experience I know this is far from an unlikely scenario, and then all sorts of unexpected actions happen!

Fair enough. I have always though it was a good idea to look at the weather in front of you. If I see that the clouds are on the hills so close in front there will be no room to turn I would probably ignore any reports to the opposite. I shall have to decide if I'm unreasonable or not.

[flyingeeza]

This isn't about what I would do, but what a non-IR rated ppl holder ought to do if they climbed into cloud.

A current PPL ought to be able to do a 180 rate 1 turn on instruments, with no other distractions. Distractions like considering whether ahead and below might be ok, or not.

The advice you're dispensing is flawed mo0g.
It's easy to state what a "current PPL ought to be able to do", but to do a level 180 after climbing into cloud is a really bad idea.
What if the cloud (that you didn't see anyway otherwise you wouldn't have climbed into the stuff, right?!) is far lower, and lowering, a quarter of a mile to the side you turn towards during your 180, and you actually fly into even lower, denser cloud that could be lowering still, and even closing in where you were initially? What if the cloud has closed in behind you at the same altitude?

Lefty's advice is sound. I've practised it, many times, deliberately both during early dual training and when solo.
I used to hunt down a nice isolated cloud while up in my old familiar playground, we'd fly around it to make sure that it's miles clear on all sides, then I turn in and climb into its base. The white-out always mustered a bit of adrenaline as I put carb heat on and chopped the throttle, hands off the yoke. It can feel like forever, but in 10 seconds or so we're back in the clear in a wings-level gliding descent.

It just practises the mind, so one day when I do pull a numpty stunt and inadvertently climb into cloud, it'll be a non-event of very short duration and very low risk. Because I will not try a turn, I would rather bust airspace and drop back out of it pronto! Survive first, talk later.

[GAFlyer4Fun]

You have to remember you are talking inexperienced PPLs here and I can think of LOADS of ways this can happen - just one quick example, Northerly departure to head South, all reports South are great and looking out the window to the South it looks good so departs not realising there is low cloud over the hills to the North!
I still say thisis where you need to have been taught situational awareness, hopefully this should keep you out of the situation anyway, but having got into it will then tell you what to do having got into it!

More generally, if they are planning to land same day at the original point of departure (which is likely to be most of the time), they ought to be looking upwind out the window at what is actually coming and the forecasts upwind that might spoil their plans for getting back.

That would be the normal PPL training scenario so I would hope that learning point would have sunk in before getting a shiny new PPL (unless someone was extremely lucky with the weather for the entire course).

[Paul_Sengupta]

chopped the throttle, hands off the yoke.

One thing to bear in mind, to a more or less of an extent depending on what you're flying, is that going from full power to idle will upset the craft a bit, y'know, spiralling propwash, all this p-factor, torque, gyroscopic thingumies and all that. You may need to keep it balanced and wings level.

[flyingeeza]

chopped the throttle, hands off the yoke.

One thing to bear in mind, to a more or less of an extent depending on what you're flying, is that going from full power to idle will upset the craft a bit, y'know, spiralling propwash, all this p-factor, torque, gyroscopic thingumies and all that. You may need to keep it balanced and wings level.

Indeed. But it's a 140 Paul...thrust and torque and p-factor and stuff in the cruise climb are minuscule factors!

[flyingeeza]

That said though, I'd rather pop out below the clag I just climbed into in a 30 degree steady bank at 85mph than inverted and whistling past Vne! Besides, inherent stability will keep me upright enough for me to catch it as I pop out into the clear again.

[Paul_Sengupta]

Yup, it was a general point though, not specifically related to your aeroplane - it's just a prod for anyone reading to have something to think about.

[mo0g]

This isn't about what I would do, but what a non-IR rated ppl holder ought to do if they climbed into cloud.

A current PPL ought to be able to do a 180 rate 1 turn on instruments, with no other distractions. Distractions like considering whether ahead and below might be ok, or not.

The advice you're dispensing is flawed mo0g.
It's easy to state what a "current PPL ought to be able to do", but to do a level 180 after climbing into cloud is a really bad idea.
What if the cloud (that you didn't see anyway otherwise you wouldn't have climbed into the stuff, right?!) is far lower, and lowering, a quarter of a mile to the side you turn towards during your 180, and you actually fly into even lower, denser cloud that could be lowering still, and even closing in where you were initially? What if the cloud has closed in behind you at the same altitude?

I completely understand what you are saying, but I am afraid I could copy your example above and simply replace "to the side" with "in front" to make my suggestion seem more valid

Ok, can we all agree that the lower you fly, the more likely you are to hit something on the ground? I hope so. So my logic is that it is best to regain visual contact with the ground before going any lower, or failing that be returning from where you came from before descending because you KNOW what the terrain and weather is there.. you were flying there a minute ago. Of course you would use your local knowledge/situational awareness, so if there was that rising terrain to the right, turn to the left. If you KNOW there is rising terrain to the left, and the right, and its ok ahead, well that gives you one option.

That local knowledge could also mean you turn more or less than 180deg to head towards what you KNOW is lower ground.

The other part of my logic is that in times of high stress it is better to fall back on things you have trained for.

In practice I understand that if you literally pop into cloud and immediately realise its a significant layer, then popping back out by descending 50' is quicker and easier and safer. If you climb into cloud, and by that I mean think/hope you'll be through it in a few seconds, for more than a few seconds, then the logic of my argument stands; try and remain calm, slowly stop the climb and regain s&l, then calmly execute the 180, and then descend back towards your airfield.

I am only suggesting my logic is sound, and I accept the logic of descending back to VMC asap, ahead, is valid.

[ChrisRowland]

It seems to me that what's needed is thinking and planning. This should be done on the ground, before take off.

Some examples:
A descent straight ahead after take off from Chalgrove RW13 would be a bad idea because there are hills ahead 600' above the airfield, better do a 180, then descend.
But if you are on RW31 at Chalgrove doing a 180 would put you towards the hills so better descend straight.
Welshpool has hills to about 1000' in the ATZ on both sides of the RW so any sort of 180 at less than circuit height (1500') would be dodgy. You would be better off descending straight ahead.

All of this can be thought about before you start, you see the cloud base is low, there's a possibility of running into it, so plan what sort of thing you can do if you get into cloud.

[foxmoth]

Chris, your Chalgrove example is pretty much the same as mine at Goodwood and proves my point that there are a number of places that a 180 is not necessarily the best option.

[Crash one]

If you have a PPL, whether you are a local pilot or a complete foreigner, and take off with little or no knowledge of the topography you are heading for, towards a cloud bank that is staring you in the face, then you deserve all you get.
Some of the scenarios suggested here would require extremely bad planning, or none at all, to get into.
A pilot with such a numpty attitude is unlikely to know, or understand, any advice given here on what to do next. So my advice would be either learn to fly properly, give up and stay on the ground for the rest of your life or, apply full left stick, full back stick and full right rudder
Yes I know I'm being silly.

[GolfHotel]

If you have a PPL, whether you are a local pilot or a complete foreigner, and take off with little or no knowledge of the topography you are heading for, towards a cloud bank that is staring you in the face, then you deserve all you get.
Some of the scenarios suggested here would require extremely bad planning, or none at all, to get into.
A pilot with such a numpty attitude is unlikely to know, or understand, any advice given here on what to do next. So my advice would be either learn to fly properly, give up and stay on the ground for the rest of your life or, apply full left stick, full back stick and full right rudder
Yes I know I'm being silly.

I'm glad its not just me. I was begging to think the idea of using common sense was out of fashion with pilots.

[foxmoth]

Certainly the examples here might be bad planning, but as I said when I gave one, it is one of many possible scenarios, here is another - you have seen it is lowish cloud but it is within limits and nice and clear below with improving wx en route so you plan to level a couple of hundred feet below, as you do so another aircraft appears just below your nose so you pull up to avoid - and this scenario could easily be where a 180 puts you back towards lowering cloud over the hills and a descent ahead is better.