Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1517614
A genuine question – does flying in controlled airspace cause an extra risk, in that it could make you reluctant to act with sufficient decisiveness to restore the situation?

I don't normally fly in controlled space. I fly a low-inertia flexi from a farm strip, with no AI, and where the pod moves separately from the wing and where the whole thing moves and twitches in any form of moving air.

I wouldn't last anywhere near the 175 seconds or whatever figure gets bandied about.

The aircraft does change flight vector very quickly though, and as I'd be climbing out on the foot throttle I could gently drop back out of the cloud in a second or two.

That's my situation. I don't fly three axis or Group A so I know little of the problems and capabilities. But in the video that sparked this discussion, I wonder if the reluctance of the pilot to take such rapid action was due to worry about the effect of deviating from the plan in controlled space?

Cheers,

Graham
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By Pete L
#1517615
Full Metal Jackass wrote:
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Learning how to fly an aeroplane on a forum....Not good! :roll:


Beats learning to fly via MS Flight Simulator...... :lol:


Been a while since I dug it out, but my experience of MSFS was that it's cloud / visibililty behaviour could be set up to be very realistic in terms of what you'd see. Set the weather for moderate turbulence and that gets the workload high enough for some degree of realism over what you feel.
#1517622
Graham56 wrote:A genuine question – does flying in controlled airspace cause an extra risk, in that it could make you reluctant to act with sufficient decisiveness to restore the situation?



In this instance it's because there are likely to be more aircraft in the area - at a large airfield. It has ILS, so you cannot guarantee you're the only one in the circuit or area, and whilst listening out certainly helps give SA, with both fixed and rotary, 3 runways, businesses and several training schools, it can be pretty busy on any day of the week regardless of the weather!

Which in my view makes it a great place to learn. :thumleft:
#1517648
Pete L wrote:
Full Metal Jackass wrote:
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Learning how to fly an aeroplane on a forum....Not good! :roll:


Beats learning to fly via MS Flight Simulator...... :lol:


Been a while since I dug it out, but my experience of MSFS was that it's cloud / visibililty behaviour could be set up to be very realistic in terms of what you'd see. Set the weather for moderate turbulence and that gets the workload high enough for some degree of realism over what you feel.


It is ironic that on a thread regarding IMC someone is denigrating the use of MSFlight Sim.

I used it extensively during my IMCR training, and use it to brush up before renewing, it is brilliant for instrument training and flying practice, which is all about using instruments and ignoring what you see outside or feel.
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By Gertie
#1517652
Graham56 wrote:A genuine question – does flying in controlled airspace cause an extra risk, in that it could make you reluctant to act with sufficient decisiveness to restore the situation?

Not me. I was diverting through Norwich's airspace once to avoid a row of thunderstorms, and eventually decided I had to land at Norwich, which I succeeded in doing having flown through only brief flurry of melted hail, so it probably wouldn't have been a good idea to leave it very much longer.

I called them up as I was turning "I'm going to have to land at Norwich". "Clear to ... oh, I see you're already turning."

Probably a bit naughty of me, I should have made the decision to land there several seconds earlier and asked for permission to deviate from my cleared path through the CAS before turning. But they had me on radar and I'm pretty sure I was the only aircraft in their entire class D.
#1517706
FlarePath wrote:Ok I'll also bite. the OP has not yet posted his qualifications or experience level. True, most PPL's will have had some basic instrument training for this very situation, yet here we have a post that suggests none of this training appears to have been carried out, or has been completely forgotten.


Not sure where you get that from - as I recall my instrument appreciation sections it was all based on the premise that you'd flown "into the side" of cloud not climbed into it. The "descending out of it" idea was actively discouraged as a risk of CFIT and the 180 taught instead.

Possibly that's a problem with the syllabus or standard teaching routines but there it is.

So the question seems perfectly valid to me and not sure where all the snark is coming from. I'm in two minds about whether to switch hats to moderator mode and go through and clear it up, to be honest.

The question pre-supposes a mistake has been made and is about retrieving the situation with minimum death and destruction.

"Just Be Better You Fool" is not a valid instruction given that premise.
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By mo0g
#1517731
Well, I still maintain that levelling and stabilising, then doing a 180, then a descent is the prudent thing to do. You dont know what is in front of you, you do know what is behind, both in terms of weather and airspace, not to mention an airfield and runway you just took off from.

Leia is correct, we dont do training related to climbing into cloud. We do training specifically to allow us to 180 back to where we came from, but we also do climbing and descending on instruments.
#1517737
Here's a thought -
You plan to do some circuits (as a student or for recency, whatever). The cloud is low, solid overcast butt good vis underneath. You ask a recently landed pilot what cloud base is. They say 1000' for instance. Your field has a circuit height of 800' and is at 200' amsl.
What would you expect to happen as you climb out?
I'm assuming you're at a field without ATC, like where I fly.
#1517746
, we dont do training related to climbing into cloud. We do training specifically to allow us to 180 back to where we came from, but we also do climbing and descending on instruments.

This is where situational awareness comes in, rate one turn through 180 will take how long? plus you have CLIMBED into the cloud, so if the general height of the cloud is the same around you you will not get out of it, a gentle descent may well get you out of it in very quick time so may be a better option, on the other hand if you have flown into a bank of cloud (IMHO less likely) then a 180 is probably the better bet - you need to look at what has happened and why then adjust your actions accordingly!
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By mo0g
#1517747
..but it doesn't matter how long you are in cloud for, but it does what is ahead and below potentially. You do know what is behind and below. I would still consider it a more stable approach to level & adjust trim/speed, then 180, then a shallow descent back into the circuit. I cant remember ever transitioning from a steep climb into a descent, and I'm not sure what kind of sensory illusions that will throw into your zero viz situation. Well, I believe it would give the illusion of accelerating on top of whatever bank illusion you may already be experiencing.

I understand the logic of getting back out, whatever way is quickest, and then cleaning up when back in VMC, I just think it is a much less stable way of going about it.
#1517750
As I said, situational awareness, know what is around your airfield - taking off on the Northerly runway at Goodwood for example you have the S downs in front of you, so a 180 is a good idea, if you take off to the South though a 180 will actually have you descending towards the hills and probably into lowering cloud that may mean you do not get below until you hit the downs,maybe level off from the climb first, though even that needs thinking about if heading for high ground, but then THINK about your actions!
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By mo0g
#1517760
foxmoth wrote:As I said, situational awareness, know what is around your airfield - taking off on the Northerly runway at Goodwood for example you have the S downs in front of you, so a 180 is a good idea, if you take off to the South though a 180 will actually have you descending towards the hills and probably into lowering cloud that may mean you do not get below until you hit the downs,maybe level off from the climb first, though even that needs thinking about if heading for high ground, but then THINK about your actions!


Don't get it, the OP was about climbing into cloud after taking off, if you level then 180 in the normal circuit direction you'll be heading back towards downwind, and should still be within the ATZ. I'm sure there are some airfields which might be an exception but doing a downwind join at or a bit below circuit height should be safe enough, as a general rule. What is the OCH for Goodwood?
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