Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511292
Miscellaneous wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Therefore one would assume...


Mode A and Mode S?

Further reinforcing Mode S replaces Mode C….in fact operationally, as in switches, it does.


Well, aside from the technical aspects, that if you want to supply your altitude, you turn the knob to "ALT".
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#1511295
I knew this would happen…. :D

Paul, are you forgetting I'm responding to Irv asking rf3? :wink:

Irv Lee wrote:
rf3flyer wrote:Does not Mode S include ALT? I understood it did.

I know this has been answered to say no, BUT.... the much more interesting point is WHY do you think that? Because this would suggest some pilots think it is OK to fly around with A and S and no C (ALT?) thinking it doesn't matter. Was this personal assumption? Bar talk? Instructor talk?


And in doing so trying to help explain a possible cause of misunderstanding. :D
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511297
When I add a new device from Apple, I have to read their T&Cs and it forces me to scroll to the end of them before I can click 'ACCEPT'.


But how often do you actually READ the T&Cs, research has shown that most people just scroll to the end and click accept without reading! :twisted:
#1511303
But that's why Apple was used as the example.

Firstly, they don't let you scroll to the end. They force a time-limit on you so that you can't accept it unless 30 seconds have passed. And if you scroll to the end - which I did recently on something I installed - it popped up to say that I hadn't read it properly because I had scrolled through it too fast'.

If you wanted, you could even implement a ReCaptcha tool to ensure that the user had read and understood it.

To be fair, I'm not sure what more you can do. As this thread illustrates, if the law says (or will say) you need to operate a transponder with Mode C enabled then it doesn't mean people will. It just means that they have to. Some people will take the metaphorical approach of scrolling to the end and clicking accept without reading.
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By T67M
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511307
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Therefore one would assume...


Mode A and Mode S?

Further reinforcing Mode S replaces Mode C….in fact operationally, as in switches, it does.


Well, aside from the technical aspects, that if you want to supply your altitude, you turn the knob to "ALT".


Which includes no mention of confusing Mode Anythings and is, IMO, much better.

For completeness:
  • "Gnd" = Mode S
  • "On" = Modes A+S
  • "ALT" = Modes A+C+S (if aircraft equipped with an altitude encoder)

The data sent when Mode S is on will differ depending upon the type of Mode-S installation - it could be ELS (~aircraft reg and flight-ID), EHS (~autopilot settings) or ADS-B (~GPS position) - but TCAS (and most ATC) currently only use Mode C.
Last edited by T67M on Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511308
Socky, do you realise that in the U.K. pilot population, there will be some who would read your final paragraph and believe it. Expect the pilot shops to start stocking red underpants due to unptecedented demand.
Your idea of leading horses to water and trying to get them to drink: if the whole training industry were onside, a process is there to bring pilots up to date every two years, but ground stuff like that is not mandated here, (unlike the USA), only flying, and then there are loopholes for SEP (not microlight or ssea ratings) like tests in 737 replacing the need to meet an SEP instructor at all.
Sadly the regulators in Europe seem to work on an assumption that the whole training industry is onside, when clearly some trainers and pilots see a regulation as a challenge to find an interpretation that arguably provides a legal hole. So your example would get pilots wearing red underpants, but some would wear them on their heads, saying "the rules don't say where to wear them".
Whether ground revision is taken seriously in practice in the USA, I don't know, as when I have a bfr there, I normally have a long list of "want to know" stuff to drive it, so I don't know what happens "normally". Personally I would keep a list of latest changes up to date, so yesterday for example I flew with a pilot for the two yearly training flight. The first thing was let him read my list for two minutes whilst I found keys, docs, etc, then just went through it with him, and this resulted in 5 minutes on the new self declare medicals, understanding how he might use it. I also sell a checklist which includes loads of stuff pilots need to know or do or refer to. The appendices contain many of the bits and bobs pilots get confused about and I know how often things change by how many times I need to update.
Free List: http://www.higherplane.co.uk/bfr-ground.pdf - the checklist is http://www.higherplane.co.uk/checklist.html but not free
Last edited by Irv Lee on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By Nick
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511310
Sooty25 wrote:If we are heading towards "compulsory use of transponder if fitted" should we also be heading towards "compulsory fitment of transponders in all aircraft"?


I seem to remember some 10 years or so ago, there was talk of modeS transponders being made compulsory, but there was such an outcry about the cost etc that the CAA backed down.
Why did they not stand thier ground. They could have made it compulsory for all new registrations and subsidised existing owners, as with 8.33 radios. Any aircraft unable to carry one for whatever reason could have been exempted on inspection.
If that had been mandated the sky would now be safer. Just a thought!

Nick.
#1511313
T67M wrote:Which includes no mention of confusing Mode Anythings and is, IMO, much better.

For completeness:
  • "Gnd" = Mode S
  • "On" = Modes A+S
  • "ALT" = Modes A+C+S (if aircraft equipped with an altitude encoder)

The data sent when Mode S is on will differ depending upon the type of Mode-S installation - it could be ELS (~aircraft reg and flight-ID), EHS (~autopilot settings) or ADS-B (~GPS position) - but TCAS (and most ATC) currently only use Mode C.


Yep, but I say again, the Mode S ALT position is what previously would be selected on a Mode C transponder. Making it easy to understand how some may believe Modes S superseded Mode C and incorporated Mode C functionality.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511314
It has been clear to me for a few years that an attempt by the CAA to do something so simple and safety based like add "mode C must be used if fitted" to the ano would have pilots marching into MPs' surgeries shouting "more regulation!!!", yet introduced by adding it to the complete tsunami of euro rules, it would all be swallowed whole with just a few muttering..
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By T67M
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511318
Miscellaneous wrote:Yep, but I say again, the Mode S ALT position is what previously would be selected on a Mode C transponder. Making it easy to understand how some may believe Modes S superseded Mode C and incorporated Mode C functionality.


In which case why do so many pilots (*) only turn the switch to "On" and not "ALT"?

(*) based on my personal experience as a CRI flying with qualified pilots for revalidation and/or type checks
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511321
T67M, what's the most common reason they give for doing that, when you ask them why?

In fact, Irv, I'm sure you've told us before bt what's the most common answer you get?

("Oh, it stands for Altitude, does it? I thought it was Alternate in case ON didn't work.")
Last edited by Dave W on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511323
T67M wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:Yep, but I say again, the Mode S ALT position is what previously would be selected on a Mode C transponder. Making it easy to understand how some may believe Modes S superseded Mode C and incorporated Mode C functionality.


In which case why do so many pilots (*) only turn the switch to "On" and not "ALT"?

(*) based on my personal experience as a CRI flying with qualified pilots for revalidation and/or type checks

Because
1. Terminology, learned in a bar..." turn it on and set 7000"
Or
2. every other instructor they have flown with previously hasn't known to look or hasn't bothered to explain or teaches pupils not to use it
Or
3. They couldn't give a damn
Or
4. They assume a new transponder has been designed to work the way they would design it, without checking it does
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By T67M
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1511324
#1 reason: "My instructor (/examiner!!!) told me not to."
#2 reason: "It sets off TCAS."

I would say that the situation is improving slowly - although that may be because I see generally the same faces ever couple of years and they've now got the message, at least whilst I'm aboard the aircraft. Most common now is the need to re-iterate the importance of keeping the ball in the middle, especially at high power during the climb. "More right rudder! More! MORE!"
Last edited by T67M on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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