Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1672352
The South coast danger areas are promulgated in the AIP along with their heights and times. They are only NOTAMED if they are due to be active outside of the published times or to an altitide higher than normal. Similarly, they may be NOTAMED when de-activated.
The type of activity within the danger areas changes constantly (hourly) as do the times of activity. Plymouth military and Swanwick military provide the DACS ( from D006, D008 south of Cornwall all the way to D040 south of Selsey Bill) whist the danger areas are active and London Info provide a DAAIS H24.
These danger areas will not show up when checking for Notams along your planned route, unless they have been NOTAMED as mentioned above (Outside published times or higher than normal) as they have scheduled published times.
Although the danger areas are promulgated as active in the AIP, it does not mean there is hazardous activity taking place for the whole published period. That's why a DACS and DAAIS are available.
AlanM liked this
#1672356
Stu B wrote:As regards the status of Plymouthy Mil, notaam EGTT B/1319/16 from 29 Jul 11:00 to 26 Aug 13:00 states:
"Plymouth Military Lower Airspace RadarService and Danger Area Crossing Service unavailable. Danger Area Crossing Service available from Swanwick Military. ...(Followed by list of dates/times).
This info was available by one tap on the map on the free "UK Airspace Avoid" app and similarly on the EasyVFR subscription App. Apps nowadays have copious, comprehensive, up-to-date info on Notams, airspace, airfields, etc immediately available. Sadly perhaps not all users appreciate the full potential of the systems available to them or know how to exploit it.
(Other GPS navigation/airspace awareness/flight planning apps are available, though I have not tested whether others similarly instantly provide this particular notam)

Plus
The number of notams related to an ATSU's area is vastly more than those relevant to any one planned flight, and anyway they don't know what you need unless you ask. Did you ask them whether Plymouth Mil was working? Either way, having self-briefed on all notams relevant to your intended route remains a pilot's responsibility and these days is not at all difficult. Remember, P P P P P P. P


Well said StuB

https://www.pocketfms.com/easyvfrbasic/
MargeB72 liked this
User avatar
By AlanM
#1672361
G-BLEW wrote:
Stu B wrote:The number of notams related to an ATSU's area is vastly more than those relevant to any one planned flight, and anyway they don't know what you need unless you ask. Did you ask them whether Plymouth Mil was working? Either way, having self-briefed on all notams relevant to your intended route remains a pilot's responsibility and these days is not at all difficult. Remember, PPPPPP.


In my example I 'knew' that 13, 14 and 17 were active (according to the NOTAM), I was speaking to London as they'd just activated my flight plan, and they told me that Plymouth Mil were on their summer hols and that 13, 14 and 17 were not active. I double checked with them (having read a NOTAM saying they were active).

South of 50N my route took me through LFD18A and LFD18B, both danger areas that were not NOTAMed as active – Brest told me they were in fact active, but provided a crossing service after liaising with Armor for me.

In this particular example pre-flight briefing information proved to be 100% wrong - which is why I consider any pre-flight DA status info as a possibility only, best to verify by talking to the appropriate unit.

Ian


LFD18A and 18B get turned on and off continually by NOTAM.

Bizarelly, this managed DA idea makes sense to me. Unless of course you pre-brief and then get airbone and find yourself in an active one 90 mins later.

So if The Lyme Bay/Portsmouth DAs became fluid Managed DAs, how many would assume inactive and fly straight through?

The UK DA use is possibly subtly different though - with D036 aften active up to FL380 and live firing from Bovingdon and target towing in Lyme Bay. Perhaps the UK want more protection from such activity compared to two FAF Rafales pootling along in a massive DA.

But ultimately, yes; Plymouth/Portsmouth DAs etc could have easier access. Western Radar on 132.3 are given access to a number of them on a block basis (ie not below FL120) and often given that remit from 0800 when Plymouth Mil open.
MargeB72 liked this
#1672405
I have used Lydd's ATIS to get current information on the ranges (044 and 141). When that wasn't available, very early one day, I asked London Info, who went off for a think and decided both were open. Although this seemed unlikely, I had no cause to argue. Since then, I have found detailed daily firing times published by the local parish council on a monthly basis. They bear only a nominal similarity to other sources: ie. both agree they are live on weekdays.

I have no problem with erring on the side of caution, but wonder about the discrepancies in timings. I might have to call the Range Control Operator and ask.
#1672522
AlanM,

You are absolutely correct in stating Plymouth Military give away airspace when it is not required. Every morning Exeter, Western Radar and Bournemouth are contacted and given approval to transit through danger areas 012 and 031 without having to contact Plymouth. GS Channel and sector 6/36 are contacted and given off route status through the danger areas for CAT for durations when there is no hazardous activity to affect them.

To clarify some comments previously made by other members:

Although the danger areas have published times, it does not mean there is hazardous activity taking place for the whole period. The activity starts and stops throughout the day and has different altitudes. Some activity may be planned, for example, to take place for 2 hours but finishes after 90 mins. That's where Plymouth Mil, Swanwick Mil and London Info can provide up to date information and a crossing clearance when possible, maybe with an altitude restriction.

I know some pilots who have infringed the Danger Areas have stated they "checked their notams, but didn't see anything to say they were active". There would not be a Notam if the activity was occurring within the times and heights that the danger area was published as active. The AIP says it's active.

There used to be a recommended VFR route through D036 from SAM to MP (Cherbourg). Although recommended, it was also conditional on what activity was occurring within D036 whether pilots fly could that route or not. This point was stated in the guidance issued as an AIC, which I sometimes used to think was missed or skipped!

A: I'd liked to transit D036
B: Unfortunately it's active with live firing, you'll need to remain clear, route via ORTAC.
A: Can i fly the recommended VFR from SAM to the MP?
B: The one that penetrates D036?
A: Yes.
B: Err no, it's active with live firing!

An ATIS type system would be unworkable. Plymouth and Swanwick Mil provide a DACS for D003, 004, 006, 006A, 007, 007A, 007B, 008, 008A, 008B, 009, 009A, 012, 013, 014, 017, 023, 026, 031, 036, 037, 038, 039 and 040 (and breath :lol: ). All with different activity at different heights at different times, that could change at short notice.
AlanM liked this