Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911398
My point is not specifically about this terrible incident, other than as a catalyst for the discussion.

What I mean is that we can use those lines in the accident report as a prompt for us to watch out for avoiding jacket/harness hangup hazards in the future.
Rob P, patowalker, johnm liked this
User avatar
By Rob P
#1911399
patowalker wrote:I. I just think the pilots deserve a bit more credit than they are given on here and in the report.


Can you just expand on that. They are due credit for what? :scratch:

Rob P
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911401
Rob P wrote:
patowalker wrote:I. I just think the pilots deserve a bit more credit than they are given on here and in the report.


Can you just expand on that. They are due credit for what? :scratch:

Rob P


Knowing that fitting lifejackets over seatbelts is dangerous.
By Cessna571
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911402
So many issues, I think they have been as objective as they can be in the report.

Look at the hours flown/experience for a start. This was being reported as the 2 most experienced pilots around. Not as having flown 1.3 hours in the last 90 days, with only 3 circuits of that on type. Low hours the year before, and only 167 & 200 in total.

Yet they decided to fly into well defined cloud when others were flying around it, or giving up and diverting.

I really do not know why “Freak Weather” is being banded about, it really wasn’t. It was a line of well defined cumulous.

It looks similar to my return from Sleap last year. Well defined Cumulous with rain falling out of the bottom of it.

I specifically remember saying to my inexperienced pilot passenger “we are not going in that, let’s be clear, we will not go into that, we will do anything, including a 180 back to where we came from before we go near that”

It’s CFIC, controlled flight into cloud.

It’s as deadly as CFIT, but more stupid.

I have always said I believe CFIT only happens when you don’t read the signs leading up to it. It doesn’t suddenly happen, you make mistakes. You miss your outs. If it ever happens to me, I hope everyone discusses the outs that I missed and learns from it.

This is much much worse than making mistakes that lead up to an issue. This is actively creating the issue by flying into that cloud.

Did they think big fluffy clouds are benign?
You only have to look at them, you can see the power of the cloud punching out of the ball. They are amazing.

If that report makes one student pilot (or any pilot) think “crumbs, apparently it’s very nasty inside those”, it’s done it’s job.

Frankly I’m surprised the two pilots in this incident didn’t know that.

It was pilot error, not “freak weather that appeared from nowhere”.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911404
Anybody know what happened to the rest of the group?
Did they all make it to Le Touquet ? Did they abort?
I wonder when they clocked one of their number had gone down?
What a ghastly situation….
By Cessna571
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911405
PeteSpencer wrote:Anybody know what happened to the rest of the group?
Did they all make it to Le Touquet ? Did they abort?
I wonder when they clocked one of their number had gone down?
What a ghastly situation….


One flew IFR
The others either flew around the cloud, or if they couldn’t, they aborted.

The report is quite clear, some of the other pilots said they were able to find a gap, others turned around.

Why anyone would post a video of a well defined line of cloud in front of them on social media, and then fly into it, is beyond me.
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By MattL
#1911407
Let’s not forget these were two members of our community who set out with friends and other flyers to have a great day out flying, after two years of limited flying due COVID. Several other aircraft made the same flight successfully, another didn’t and another also crashed. A whole bunch of Human Factors has brought a tragic outcome. Please don’t think ‘could never happen to me / how stupid were they’ - have a look at some of the photos in the report and honestly ask if you’ve not flown towards weather like that thinking there is gaps to go round / under it. It’s easy to be captain hindsight sat on your sofa reading an Internet forum.
kanga, NDB_hold, TheKentishFledgling and 4 others liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911408
MrsJohnm is no fan of bumpy clouds and while I hold an IR and have flown through some pretty rough weather I would not seek it out. Moreover one of the risks that one has to be alert for is the autopilot giving up in severe turbulence and effectively saying "Sorry, guv this is beyond me you're on your own!" At that point, you need to be ready to fly manually in an instant, if it's rough I'll already have one hand on the yoke, and the level of concentration on the clocks and dials is taxing to put it mildly.
By Cessna571
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911410
MattL wrote:Let’s not forget these were two members of our community who set out with friends and other flyers to have a great day out flying, after two years of limited flying due COVID. Several other aircraft made the same flight successfully, another didn’t and another also crashed. A whole bunch of Human Factors has brought a tragic outcome. Please don’t think ‘could never happen to me / how stupid were they’ - have a look at some of the photos in the report and honestly ask if you’ve not flown towards weather like that thinking there is gaps to go round / under it. It’s easy to be captain hindsight sat on your sofa reading an Internet forum.


I have on many occasions flown towards weather like that hoping there would be gaps or I’d be able to fly around.

When there wasn’t I came up with another plan, I didn’t fly into cumulous with water falling out of the bottom of it.

Only the other week I didn’t make it to Beccles, I decided on a different plan when I got to Rougham.

All we can do is learn from this.

The pilots were not stupid people, but that was a stupid thing to do.

It’s not about being captain hindsight, it’s about trying to see what went wrong.

What went wrong is quite obvious. I think the report is quite explicit in pointing out the weather conditions did not appear from nowhere and it was a conscious decision to fly into cloud, when others didn’t.

It even says that a former passenger said they were with the pilot on a flight to LeTouquet and they’d flown in cloud.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911414
Like @johnm despite having an IR I tend to avoid convective cloud like the plague, especially when it forms a wall blocking my path.

Indeed my only seriously brown trouser moment in IFR conditions was in US with Keef donkeys' years ago after we'd both just had our rental BFR/IR/Catalina check rides prior to 2 weeks' touring.

We decided to celebrate with an IFR flight through the LA marine layer from Brackett Field to Santa Barbara for a spot of seafood lunch.:

On the way back the relative calm of the marine layer was interrupted by a blinding flash and an almighty clap of thunder from an embedded CB we'd flown into.

We were tipped (I was PF LHS)into 70 deg bank in an instant and before I could regain control we dropped out of the bottom of the cloud:
I have never been so happy to see a horizon in my life.
Lesson learned. :wink:
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By Rob P
#1911416
MattL wrote:Please don’t think ‘could never happen to me / how stupid were they’


Au contraire. When reading of these tragedies my thoughts are invariably "There, but for the grace of some lucky pixie, go I"

Rob P
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By Cessna571
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911421
Rob P wrote:
MattL wrote:Please don’t think ‘could never happen to me / how stupid were they’


Au contraire. When reading of these tragedies my thoughts are invariably "There, but for the grace of some lucky pixie, go I"

Rob P


Out of interest, I remember reading of your incident over the channel.

I don’t remember the exact lead up, was “not take off” or “turn back” the way to deal with it in hindsight?

or was it a learning point more like “have a proper scan going”
User avatar
By Rob P
#1911426
Cessna571 wrote: ... or was it a learning point more like “have a proper scan going”


It was indeed partially that.

My next foggles outing included a descent during which I remembered to pay a lot more attention to the clockwork altimeter.

I also learned that it would probably have been far better to ask London Info for the Norwich and Wattisham actuals to ascertain if it would have been wiser staying on top.

Rob P
Dave W liked this
#1911428
As Cessna571 says, from the report:

Passengers who had flown with the pilots on a previous trip to Le Touquet reported that they had briefly entered cloud during that flight, but on that occasion the aircraft had continued without incident


Neither pilot held an instrument rating or IMC qualification.


Normalisation of deviance, and also possibly ‘risky shift’ here, are two hazardous concepts GA pilots need to be aware of.

Both are regular ingredients in fatal outcomes.
AlanM, Cessna571, GrahamB and 1 others liked this
#1911441
Perhaps the forum could enlighten me about a feature which may have some relevance. I haven't seen the social media photos.

I've flown many times with military lifejackets , although always with a four point harness. I'm sure I remember correctly that the bladder, the stole enclosing it and the inflation bottle were all attached at the forward central edge (breastbone area) in such a way that the shoulder harness could be slid under and consequently be much more secure and comfortable.

It appears to me that the kit you can buy from GA suppliers appears to have more in common with sailing lifejackets adapted for aviation , (including the price !). In which case it may not be possible to position the shoulder harness under the stole and bottle as there is no access. Consequently the harness goes over the top which is not so secure and likely to be very uncomfortable, or the wearer feeds the harness under the stole for comfort perhaps not realising the potential for it to get hung up. A single diagonal shoulder harness could just make the situation worse.

IC
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