Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1895511
On an airways flight plan having got a squark before departure in class G, on first contact with london, the RT was really busy and when I finally got a call in, was given a climb into the LTMA without the magic words. Just wondering what the general opion is;

a. Youve got a squark, you're talking to London, you've been given a climb, they know that will take you into controlled airspace, whats the problem?
b. Stay OCAS (thus disregarding the clearance) wait till the RT calms down and get the clearance again?
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895528
I'd go with option a) if you're pretty sure you've been cleared to an altitude inside the LTMA. No need to waste your time and fuel (or safety by scud-running) at low levels.
#1895531
Getting a squawk on the Ground from London means nothing!!...Unless you get an ACTUAL clearance on the ground or in the air with specific instructions to enter CAS then your NOT cleared to join. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong...

As an Area ATCO (LTC) who regularly works joiners/leavers from/to Oxford, Cranfield etc I can say this with certainty.
Similarly, on RT...unless you hear me say the magic words then you aint cleared so stay out. I'd be shocked if an ATCO 'cleared' you in by just issuing a climb. Thats NOT how its supposed to be done and contrary to MATS Pt.1. ...

As always, if youre unsure then save everyone a bad day by asking for clarification...

SD
Last edited by Spamcan Defender on Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895536
@Spamcan Defender I'm in easy range of two ctrs/ctas, different providers - one sees a radar heading outside CAS heading into CAS as permission to enter, the other see it as permission to report an infringement. Fortunately I'm used to the one demanding a formal clearance, so on one sortie at the other a couple of years ago, I clearly annoyed a controller at the other by asking to confirm their radar heading meant they wanted me to enter.
#1895540
simoon wrote:I......was given a climb into the LTMA without the magic words. Just wondering what the general opion is;

a. Youve got a squark, you're talking to London, you've been given a climb, they know that will take you into controlled airspace, whats the problem?
b. Stay OCAS (thus disregarding the clearance) wait till the RT calms down and get the clearance again?

If there is doubt, there is no doubt...

Simply ask "Confirm cleared to enter controlled airspace".

It's not difficult. It might save you a 'no tea and no biscuits' meeting with our friendly CAA airspace enforcer...
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895544
@talkdownman that was only the first issue with clarity on that particular flight. However, I must say more recently, they were very cooperative and flexible in ways I didn't expect and would never have predicted (even though I still had to ask for the same entry confirmation again) so they are very much back in my good books again.
By Pilot Pete
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895552
Interesting subject.
I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly sure I haven't heard 'cleared to enter' when operating into LTC areas in the climb.
I've called the supervisor from the ground and exchanged details.
I have an active FP, I have been given a squawk. The controller has my strip infront of him and he issues a command to a point in space.
Each time it's been so busy I've felt lucky to get my call in. At that point I think we both know what I'm expected to do. I'm unlikely to reconfirm.
If it has been said, I will have definitely read-back but just dont recall.

If I was cold calling for a 'pop up' IFR I'd be looking to hear it and read back.
Essex have never failed to issue 'CTE' but it has always been less busy than LTC.
#1895555
Spamcan Defender wrote:Getting a squawk on the Ground from London means nothing!!...Unless you get an ACTUAL clearance on the ground or in the air with specific instructions to enter CAS then your NOT cleared to join. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong...

As an Area ATCO who regularly works joiners/leavers from/to Oxford, Cranfield etc I can say this with certainty.
Similarly, on RT...unless you hear me say the magic words then you aint cleared so stay out. I'd be shocked if an ATCO 'cleared' you in by just issuing a climb. Thats NOT how its supposed to be done and contrary to MATS Pt.1. ...

As always, if youre unsure then save everyone a bad day by asking for clarification...

SD

Wot 'e said but...
In all the years I operated departures out of Farnborough/Fairoaks/Blackbushe/Lasham/Dunsfold (about 20) joining CAS I seldom heard 'cleared to join', it was invariably a silent handover climbing to the base followed by 'remain outside CAS and contact London Control on XXX.XXX' after which London (Terminal not Area) Control would instruct you to 'climb to flight level XXX'
Last edited by chevvron on Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895559
This seems to be what Farnborough do today. I rarely hear the ‘cleared to …’ words, just ‘climb level x, contact London, frequency y’. There seems to be an implied clearance if you’re climbing to a level that takes you into controlled airspace.

Iceman 8)