Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By T6Harvard
#1860269
JAFO wrote:
T6Harvard wrote:I've got it on Kindle and I've bought the paperback for my friend's birthday because she'll love it :D


And, as the first person to submit a review to Amazon, you have also won a signed copy for yourself. It is your choice as to whether you PM me your address or fly in to Hinderclay Meadows on 2nd October to collect it. :thumleft:


@JAFO That's very kind, thank you.
I'd love to attend the fly-in at HM but suspect I'll struggle to get there, although there's plenty of time to ponder that. Will PM :)
JAFO, tr7v8 liked this
By TopCat
#1860349
T6Harvard wrote:
JAFO wrote:
T6Harvard wrote:I've got it on Kindle and I've bought the paperback for my friend's birthday because she'll love it :D


And, as the first person to submit a review to Amazon, you have also won a signed copy for yourself. It is your choice as to whether you PM me your address or fly in to Hinderclay Meadows on 2nd October to collect it. :thumleft:


@JAFO That's very kind, thank you.

No giving up allowed now, of course ;)
T6Harvard, JAFO liked this
By Loco parentis
#1860381
Helicopters ?? What are the hourly operational costs of this un-necessary luxury? Helicopters, when we know how impossible it is to get a single bobby to investigate a humble burglary. Why ? back comes the screech from the Police Federation or media sources that they can't afford it.

Will we ever get our priorities sorted ?
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By Kittyhawk
#1860388
Loco parentis wrote:Helicopters ?? What are the hourly operational costs of this un-necessary luxury? Helicopters, when we know how impossible it is to get a single bobby to investigate a humble burglary. Why ? back comes the screech from the Police Federation or media sources that they can't afford it.

Will we ever get our priorities sorted ?


What about the cost of all those patrol cars? Bicycles and stout footwear should be all they need, and as for all the expenditure on radios? What's wrong with a whistle?

Evening All... :wink:
Last edited by Kittyhawk on Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By JAFO
#1860390
Given the speed with which a helicopter can search an area, it is significantly cheaper than having police officers search the area on foot.

Given that it is so much quicker, this also contributes to the fact that they find people in time, they save lives.
kanga, Flying_john, T6Harvard and 1 others liked this
By Loco parentis
#1860392
Yes, maybe. But their role is not search and rescue. Policing is about nicking criminals and you can't do that from a helicopter.

The use of helicopters by the police, to me as a taxpayer, suggests a bit of overkill in a small country already smothered in more CCTV than any other country of similar size and maybe more than an element of empire building.
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By JAFO
#1860393
@Loco parentis - policing is not only about nicking criminals. Missing persons incidents are, for very good reason, dealt with by the police. And the use of helicopters saves lives and saves time, allowing officers to get back to other duties.

However, you are right, nicking criminals is the job of the police and the use of helicopters in searching for offender's that have made off from the scene results in the arrest of many who would not otherwise be apprehended.

Then there are vehicle pursuits, the use of helicopters not only ensures that the vehicle cannot escape officers, it also makes the pursuit safer for everyone involved: police officer, offender and innocent bystander alike.

Just three ways in which helicopters support policing, save time, save money and save lives. If only there was some sort of book where you could read about what goes on :wink:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1785632620/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=
scd975, T6Harvard, Ian Melville and 14 others liked this
By johnm
#1860414
Read the first bit this morning and as I'm based at Staverton and live in the Cotswolds it was particularly enjoyable :D

The writing style is a joy and I care not how much of it is true and how much of it isn't :D
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By kanga
#1860446
JAFO wrote:... Missing persons incidents are, for very good reason, dealt with by the police. And the use of helicopters saves lives and saves time, allowing officers to get back to other duties.

..


<slight drift :oops: >

Indeed. Which is why it seemed petty and counterproductive when one of the first decrees from head of newly merged Police Scotland was to direct all previously separate Force areas that they should no longer ask Skywatch for help in missing persons searches if no Police nor military air assets were available. AIUI, the only Police helicopters were in the Strathclyde Force area, and several of the remoter Forces had thitherto been happy to use Skywatch. Latter cost them nothing, and had found people, both survivors who might not otherwise have been so, and occasionally deceased, more quickly than ground-based assets could have.

I gather that this Police Scotland policy still applies, despite changes in leadership :?

</>
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By A4 Pacific
#1860458
Loco parentis wrote:Helicopters ?? What are the hourly operational costs of this un-necessary luxury? Helicopters, when we know how impossible it is to get a single bobby to investigate a humble burglary. Why ? back comes the screech from the Police Federation or media sources that they can't afford it.

Will we ever get our priorities sorted ?


The Hungerford massacre in 1987 was a very significant driver in the widespread introduction of police air support, and more specifically helicopters. At the time, Wiltshire police were ‘experimenting’ with the use of a helicopter fitted with nothing more than a police radio in the hands of a police officer. It enabled the police to safely track the unpredictable movement of Michael Ryan. Coordinating the positioning of police resources and evacuating relevant areas before his arrival. It is beyond doubt this shortened the event and saved many lives.

Once the decision is taken to provide law enforcement with air support, due to the fixed costs involved, the difference between flying the machine, and not flying is relatively trivial.

The deterrent effect of it’s mere rapid availability should not be underestimated.

Police air support can be justified financially purely on the basis that it is a force multiplier. Doing the work of many officers and resources. It can attend and search quickly for a vulnerable missing person on one side of the force area. Rapidly switch to a vehicle pursuit in another. Then attend and contain a burglary/armed robbery awaiting the arrival of the dog section/firearms.

Is it expensive for a single resource? It probably looks that way to some. However it can represent great value, because it can do the work of many resources. Almost always quicker and often better.

Sadly the way that it has developed in recent years with the advent of a more centralised NPAS has effectively neutered all of the advantages the earlier iteration delivered. All ‘allegedly’ to save money and despite it doing little of the sort!

I was a police pilot (rotary and fixed wing) throughout the 90s. On occasion we did land the helicopter and my police observers made arrests.

I should probably add, Loco parentis, I also flew air ambulance helicopters. The difference between the two was stark! Arrive anywhere in a marked police vehicle, and nobody’s happy to see you. Arrive anywhere in an ambulance, especially a flying one, and everyone’s happy to see you. So attitudes like yours aren’t unusual. Merely misguided.

You’re welcome
kanga, Hooligan, JAFO and 7 others liked this
By Loco parentis
#1860541
The police chopper is called. A clutch of villains are arrested caught in possession of the swag. Condign sentencing follows - really? When is that ever going to happen ? Police time and resources are wasted time and time again because not all the component parts of the justice system sing from the same hymn sheet, even some of the time.

Search and rescue is not in the remit of the police. That's the job of the appointed rescue service; Coastguard, RNLI, etc.

The role of the police should be solely directed towards the prevention and detection of crime and the apprehension of the wrongdoer and the provision of evidence in the furtherance of.

Isn't that the case ? No, it should be but it isn't. What on earth is the use - apart from a bit of flag waving and empire building - of using hugely expensive machinery to obtain convictions that end almost always not in tears but in huge grins and fist pumping as the scum leave Court having successfully bamboozled yet again.

It's probably far to late for the police to return to an acceptance of policing as it was. They are now effectively politicised and have morphed into social workers, I find the OPs original contribution lacking elements of reality in so far as my understanding of the effectiveness of current police operations.
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By lobstaboy
#1860549
Loco parentis wrote:The role of the police should be solely directed towards the prevention and detection of crime and the apprehension of the wrongdoer and the provision of evidence in the furtherance of.

Isn't that the case ? No, it should be but it isn't.


That purely personal opinion is at odds with the generally accepted role of the police in society. Which is to enforce the law, to protect the populace and to support its health and safety.
I recommend a bit of Googling.
The rest of your rather odd post is nothing to do with police helicopters - it seems to be a general rant about the police to me.
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By MattL
#1860551
Well I’m hugely enjoying @JAFO s book in between flying and refereeing overheated offspring. Loving some of the general life observations and thought intertwined with the flying. I don’t think this forum/thread is the place for rants about the conceptual state of modern policing.
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By JAFO
#1860553
Loco parentis wrote:I find the OPs original contribution lacking elements of reality in so far as my understanding of the effectiveness of current police operations.


Police officers have authority under the Crown for the protection of life and property, maintenance of order, prevention and detection of crime and prosecution of offenders. You will notice that protection of life is paramount.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion both as to the role and the effectiveness of the police. I can't really follow the argument that the courts don't sentence as you think they should so the police shouldn't bother, which seemed to be where you were heading.

My contribution to this thread and my opinion is based on fifteen years of frontline operations shoulder to shoulder with my police officer colleagues. I admit, though, that this experience was gained a few years ago.

What is you opinion based on?

@MattL is right, though. There's probably another place for this discussion. I'm glad you're enjoying it, Matt.
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