Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1847186
matthew_w100 wrote:Yes - I heard "startle factor" in GA yesterday. It's arrived in GA. It is a good term to describe my response to an unexpected IMC entry the other day.


As a martial arts instructor I teach "Startle response", an instinctive response that aims to make you safe in the event of things suddenly happening that are unexpected and threatening. I don't have a problem mapping that to the cockpit at-all (albeit that the specific actions are clearly going to be a bit different).

And I think I do: in the self defence environment is is a protective stance, arms up in a fighting guard, slight crouch. It's amazingly effective against just about anything from a punch to the face to a grab from behind. Then think about what to do next.

In the cockpit it's centralised controls, look forward - up in VMC, at the AI in IMC, free up just enough mental capacity to work out if I need to do anything with the throttle, then think about what to do next.

G
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By Rob P
#1847189
G-BLEW wrote:
How about suggesting that plain English?

Ian


"Lots of gliders over that way today. Let's go somewhere else"

Rob P
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By Rob L
#1847192
matthew_w100 wrote:Yes - I heard "startle factor" in GA yesterday. It's arrived in GA. ...(snip)


In recent history, the report into the "Sully" incident is a classic example, albeit in Commercial Air Transport (CAT) in that case. GtE quotes "Startle response"; I'm sure that's the same?

Rob
(sorry for the thread drift)
#1847194
townleyc wrote:
skydriller wrote:Best thing Ive seen is a sticker on the combing of a C172 I hired in Wyoming :

"DONT DO ANYTHING STUPID !!"


Was it a long haired C172?

:D :D

KE

When I was an apprentice at RAE Farnborough we had a Gazelle in the hangar with a placard "It is prohibited to crash this aircraft".

G
By TopCat
#1847204
As I CFIT wrote:Incidentally, I still don't know where I stand with the idea of 'birds in the vicinity', as heard on an ATIS

Birds? In the air?

Blimey. That's a new one on me. Do they have ADS-B out?
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By FlightDek
#1847208
As I CFIT wrote:Incidentally, I still don't know where I stand with the idea of 'birds in the vicinity', as heard on an ATIS, as being a worthy threat in the spirit of TEM. On one hand, there's nothing that you can do about it


I think I read somewhere to turn on the windscreen demister. It heats the plastic making it slightly more malleable. The idea is that a birdstrike is less likely to shatter the windscreen
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By patowalker
#1847210
Genghis the Engineer wrote:As a martial arts instructor I teach "Startle response", an instinctive response that aims to make you safe in the event of things suddenly happening that are unexpected and threatening. I don't have a problem mapping that to the cockpit at-all (albeit that the specific actions are clearly going to be a bit different).
G


You didn't get that from martial arts, you got it from flying early microlights, like a lot of us. :D
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By TLRippon
#1847215
MichaelP wrote:I had to teach TEM and SHELL probably before it entered into the PPL training syllabus here in Britain.

I am not against TEM.

But I am offended by this:

As opposed to old school



Michael, you may find that Lefty, who originally suggested the point, is actually older school than yourself. :D
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By leiafee
#1847218
The actual breakdown of “safety” into “making sure we know what threats might arise and what errors we might make and how we might avoid or deal with them” seems useful.

But it needs to be a conversation not an acronym!

It’s fundamentally poor teaching technique to do it the other way round - you don’t lead with the definition or an acronym.

You lead with a discussion - “how would YOU define safety/airmanship” Almost certainly people will come uo with some of the definition you want them to have on their own.

Then you fill in the gaps ”Okay, have you considered these elements”

Then, if it’s useful (or if your syllabus demands you drill it) you add the acronym as an aide memoire “here’s a way to make that more structured and remember it”.

And maybe that IS how it’ll be taught once the new safety evening provider starts rolling stuff out.

But that FAA blurb isn’t it!
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By Rob P
#1847223
It stands for threat and error management and is a buzzword for the notion that any issues you might have during flight are either from external factors like weather, traffic and mechanical or by dint of your own cock-ups - and you should consider what to do about them in advance.

Have I got that right?

And while we are on the subject of plain English, I suppose I am the only one who thought this e-mail would be about the Manchester LLR?

Image

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Sun May 16, 2021 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By skydriller
#1847235
Rallye wrote:Sorry for my stupid question.What's TEM ?


Not a Stupid Question. I had no idea what it was until I asked in this thread last year :

https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=116015&hilit=Threat+Error+Management

The explanation provided by @MikeE in that thread was very thorough.

I believe I summed it up at the time as :

skydriller wrote: that does seem to be a rather over-complicated way to say :

Plan the flight properly.
What might go wrong?
What will you do if it does?


Regards, SD..
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