More on popup clearances into Class A

[peterh337]

Went to Deauville LFRG yesterday.

On the way there, filed an IFPS FP at FL100 and that was fine, with the usual London Control "direct SITET" and then a handover to Paris Control.

On the way back, the only autorouting tool currently working (Flight Plan Pro) could not work out a routing back to EGKA but I quickly found that LFRG DCT ETRAT DCT SITET DCT EGKA works (even without the ETRAT bit) but only below FL060 i.e. below CAS. This is not suprising since nowadays (not the case in the past) IFPS accepts almost anything so long as it is OCAS.

So I filed this route, FL050.

Departed from LFRG, with what looked like an IFR squawk, cleared on a SID they made up on the spot (but very simple) FL050 and then asked for and got FL060 to stay VMC. Then asked for FL080 and they transferred me to "London 124.6". I know London Info but ti didn't click right away and I called up "London Control" on 124.6. Then realised I got the same old "drop you out of the system" trick played on me..... presumably Deauville called LC for the handover but were told that LC are not working OCAS traffic?

Anyway, the wx was OK for FL075 (the base of UK CAS, initially) or below, just about... I asked London Info what would happen if I had to ask for a climb to say FL150 due weather and suprisingly they said that they would negotiate an airways clearance with LC. I wonder how this differs from when I last posted on this subject, when I was flying (IIRC) from the IOM, IFR, on an IFPS FP at FL050, but got refused airways entry by Manchester and was b*ggered after that.

Why were LI able to get the clearance from LC this time?

The only other possible difference is in the squawk. This time the squawk would have been a proper IFR one. The previous time it probably was one which IOM made up on the spot from their own allocated range, so the flight never got picked up by the LC secondary radar.

[bookworm]

From a practical point of view, a pop-up into Shoreham from SITET is likely to involve much less coordination than a full route down over the Manchester TMA, DTY CTA and London TMAs.

As I suggested before, why not file higher level and then stay low below the airway if that suits you better in flight?

[peterh337]

My guess would be that if you file for FL100+ and then ask for FL050, LC will drop you out of CAS into LI and from then on you won't get back up again.

Normally when I fly abroad I go IFR FL100+ so nobody can doubt the intention, but in the above case I tried a lower level FP because since CFMU changed their validation site to cripple the routing tools I had no way to work out the FL100+ one.

[bookworm]

My guess would be that if you file for FL100+ and then ask for FL050, LC will drop you out of CAS into LI and from then on you won't get back up again.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. I'm not sure I fully understand the scenario here, but I assume we're in controlled airspace in France, then we drop out at the FIR boundary, then we decide we want to climb again and take our place in the TMA. I can't see a problem with that -- at least we're already known to the TC sector in question i.e. they have a strip for us, we count as their traffic for ATFM purposes, and we'll be roughly on route and on time.

[SwanFIS]

The track ETRAT - SITET - EGKA does not cross any awkward airspace, it would just be a matter of us speaking to the 18 Planner to see if they could accomodate you for a short time before your descent into Shoreham.

The possible traffic against you at lowish level on that route would be on G27 or out of London City, Biggin, Southend etc routing out through Sector 18 for SW Europe.

A very different kettle of fish compared to your IOM flight, or a low level TMA transit.

[sandy771]

I asked London Info what would happen if I had to ask for a climb to say FL150 due weather and suprisingly they said that they would negotiate an airways clearance with LC. I wonder how this differs from when I last posted on this subject, when I was flying (IIRC) from the IOM, IFR, on an IFPS FP at FL050, but got refused airways entry by Manchester and was b*ggered after that.

I heard that as I was pootling back from LFAT VFR, I wondered why the question

[bookworm]

FWIW, ETRAT A34 DRAKE is only plannable at FL 100 anyway. Above that you hit the one way system, and you need to head east for ABB or west for ORTAC.

[io91]

Hi,

I often fly A34 between ETRAT and DRAKE. To get the FPL accepted you have to file a lower level at LISEU e.g. A34 LISEU/N0165F100 A34 MID.

However I have never been asked by Paris to descend and on the one occasion I did ask for a descent it was only granted when I said it was due to weather!

Regards

Andrew

[mm_flynn]

That particular trip seems to have a recommended (by deep thought) route of Nevil DCT EGKA although OSPOL will work as well and is slightly shorter.

[peterh337]

However I have never been asked by Paris to descend and on the one occasion I did ask for a descent it was only granted when I said it was due to weather!

Indeed; the airway restrictions between say Shoreham and N France, where going N is much more complicated, seem to be purely CFMU artefacts which are universally ignored by the controllers for any actual flight. I've always had a nearly DCT Shoreham, at any level up to about F150, from say CAN or elsewhere on the French coast.

On the wider question (original post) I was slightly puzzled at London Info's apparent ability to do this, when the last "popup clearance into Class A" thread made it apparently very clear that there was zero chance because the system did not allow for it. Obviously I can see that SITET-EGKA is a lot simpler than flying just W of LHR, but the issue did not seem to be fitting the aircraft into the system; it seemed to be that there was no way to implement the clearance, end of story, without a flight plan IN the system, but in both cases I had an IFR/IFPS FP in the system OK.

Each time something weird like this comes up, I learn a little bit but at the same time I learn that often there is no clear answer.

I would not like to imagine a foreign pilot who filed an IFR FP for say FL070, getting transferred to "London" on 124.60, remaining happily at FL070, and then (not realising that "London" now expects him to be OCAS) doing an impressive CAS bust a few miles later. Or, discovering that he is now OCAS (the base being FL075 intiially) and has to remain OCAS (i.e. descend FL065, 055, etc) until an airways clearance is negotiated for him during which time he might he halfway into some embedded nasties. The point is that this is a trap for those who do not know the curious way the UK system works, which is practically everybody flying IFR around the world in the normal way. The only reason it doesn't happen much (probably) is because most regular IFR traffic flies way high enough to not get into this. Whereas flying across France if you need to climb from FL070 (Class E) to FL150 (Class D) "due weather" you will get handed back to Paris Control and up you go.

I think London Info should tell the pilot that his IFR clearance is now in the bin and he must remain OCAS, very clearly. After all, they can see his squawk (unofficially I know) so they can see he is coming off a Eurocontrol flight.

The best way is to either stick to VFR, OCAS, and deal with whatever is encountered (including clouds - if you are instrument capable ), or fly IFR at some decisive FL like 100+ and then one retains the IFR service the whole way, and can climb above weather as necessary.

I hope that the routing tools situation gets back to what it was last year, when practically anything could be routed.

[ahepburn]

OK, the following happened a few weeks ago. We had flight planned in a Cirrus from Prestwick to Lausanne at FL110, routing SID NGY N57 POL A47 DTY L10 RINTI... The FP has been validated by the CFMU (quite an achievement in itself for a confused foreign pilot). We appear to be in controlled airspace all the way, though subsequent inspection of the AIrspace Classification chart does seem to indicate that the floor may vary with time of day. Then, somewhere around NGY, I'm given a 15 degree left heading change. OK, I can live with that. Next, they say I'm leaving controlled airspace, and will receive basic service (I think it was). Most foreign pilots wouldn't have a clue what that meant. Having bumbed in to it in May, I've read up a little, but can't say I'm crystal clear. From here on, we are vectored initially to Manchester, which wasn't on our filed route, then direct TRACA, which isn't even in England (but I'll take it - saves gas). Every little while, we were told we were either in or outside controlled airspace, and yes, we did talk to London Information for a while. From what I can understand, when we were outside of controlled airspace, the only rule really protecting us from bumping into someone was the one my flight instructor told me when we were flying north of Edinburgh 40 years ago - "Son, when the Lord made the sky, he made plenty of it". I though things might have taken a step forward in that amount of time, but it seems not. After we crossed the Channel, things settled down, and we had an uneventful ride down to destination.

Guys, flying is about getting from one country to another. One shouldn't need to have intimate local knowledge to navigate a little country like England safely. And this is IFR (or at least I thought it was - I'm beginning to wonder). VFR is apparently an order of magnitude worse, even for the locals. The whole UK system is obviously in need of serious overhaul to bring it in line with the rest of the known world. The sooner it gets "Euopeanised" the better, as far as I can see.

[M609]

If what the last post is accurate, I´m shocked at poor level of service from my UK colleauges. The general rule in the rest of the civilized world is that a flight that is planned inside CAS, and is on a IFPS accepted FPL is not to be dumped out of CAS unless that´s in the flight plan, or the PIC asks for it! It´s a known fact that the exact borders of CAS is not apparent to most pilots while on a IFR flight, and re-routing a flight off planned track and out of CAS is bordering on negligence in my book.

I know of few things that can warrant taking any flight out of CAS without asking the pilot, avoiding imminent collision/loss of separation or severe weather is really the only ones I got. Even then the pilot is to be informed that it is happening, and why ASAP.

I once, not that long ago, heard the following in a conversation with a N-CAA person during a discussion about some airspace matters (rough translation):
Controller: "....they do it like that in the UK, any chance that XXXXX will have the option of doing the same over here...."
N-CAA person: "No chance of us following any cues from the UK on airspace policy, it´s useless....."

Made me smile....

[Chilli Monster]

If what the last post is accurate, I´m shocked at poor level of service from my UK colleauges. The general rule in the rest of the civilized world is that a flight that is planned inside CAS, and is on a IFPS accepted FPL is not to be dumped out of CAS unless that´s in the flight plan, or the PIC asks for it!

That's all well and good in theory - unfortunately it doesn't take into account the problem that becomes apparent, that of variable airway bases. Getting from Scotland southwards in a non-pressurised or non-oxygen carrying aircraft during the daytime is a nightmare due on the whole to the Military. It's because of them that the base of CAS is so high and unuseable.

So - do you keep them on their requested route and take them outside occasionally, or do you add another 100 track miles to keep them inside? I agree with you on the stupidity of the policy, but unfortunately, and until someone (as has been said here so many times before) tears up the airspace map and starts from scratch we're scuppered.

ahepburn should think himself lucky - at least he didn't have to renegotiate clearances to re-join CAS after he'd been dumped outside!

[M609]

So - do you keep them on their requested route and take them outside occasionally

Personally I would say yes, given that the flight is on it´s planned level, and has not been capped by ATC. The pilot should know that he has planned outside CAS.
Now in practice I suspect we both know that´s not the case all the time. Our MATS says you only have to inform a pilot when he is leaving CAS if in level flight if on flight plan route.

CAS base above FL100 in low terrain areas is a non starter IMHO, since both MIL and air sports activities that need FL100+ are easy to handle with (flexible) seggregated airspace. Sad that the FUA system did not get implemented the way is was intended in the whole of Europe. Too many nations just kept the old system, giving the seggregated airspace new names.

(Funny how the UK Mod "can´t get anything done" in CAS in the UK, and need all the class G, but manage just fine when they go abroad..... )

[peterh337]

What I don't get is why London Control (or equivalent up north) will not provide a continuous service to FL110 traffic even if it is popping out of CAS.