Pakistani sex gangs

[ROG]

Judge says its racist--dear old whinging Keith Vaz and local chief constable says it isn"t. Would it be racist if nine white men groomed only moslem girls.
The sentences were more than i expected--bearing in mind only half time is served--Gerard to confirm or otherwise---but much less than they deserved.
This seems to be a continuing problem which has often been denied and swept under the carpet, It now seems to be viewed by some as just another facet of our colourful multi cultural society.

[johnm]

Keith Vaz and Chief Constable are just local politicing, the judge and the real politicians have used the words "racist" and "cultural issues" so those at the policy end are under no illusions.

[Timothy]

Clearly it's what some Pakistanis and Afghans do here.

But if you look at what some white Christian* men do with children in Thailand, does that not make us think that it is something other than race that is in play? Maybe race difference rather than absolute race?



* I use the word Christian in the same sense as these convicts are called Muslim.

[Propwash]

Rog,
You need to consider the concerns of the Ch Cons: if he doesn't downplay the racial angle he might inflame the already tense situation in respect of some very nasty (white) groups that are seeking to stir up serious unrest on the back of things like this.

Was it racial? Yes. Should he call it that? Probably not in the area where he has responsibility for public tranquility.

I do find the criticism of some politicians about police reluctance to take action for fear of being branded racist very hypocritical, given that the same people were the ones to brand the police racist in the first place, both over the Lawrence murder investigation and the policy of stop and search in areas of high (black) gun and knife crime. Talk about unintended consequences . . . . . . . I hope that they may now examine their own consciences but doubt they will.

PW

[Timothy]

When any ethnic group has a perceived or actual proclivity to any particular anti social behaviour or crime (Travellers steal and wreck, Muslims bomb and rape, Afro Caribs knife and sell drugs, Lithuanians kidnap for prostitution, Nigerians are corrupt, Jews defraud etc etc etc) my thoughts always go out to those of that group who don't.

[Gerard Clarke]

I think that the issues of gender and culture are at least as important if not more important here than issues of race (Pakistanis being a national or ethnic group, in any event, and not a race). There is a real problem about attitudes towards women amongst men from Islamic cultural backgrounds. Those pernicious attitudes were exacerbated here by perceptions that some of the women victims were even more worthless than Islamic women because they were outsiders. I infer, by the way, that the reason that one of the criminals cannot be named is because his victims included his female relatives, and naming him would risk naming them.

Even though people like me are caricatured elsewhere on the Forum as being the chief recruiting sergeants for the BNP for daring to have liberal opinions*, I am not afraid to say that Islam is a rotten system of thought, and that its approach to gender is one of its worst features.

I disagree with the Assistant Chief Constable, but PW explains sensibly why the ACC has to tread carefully. If you know anything about Manchester, you will see PW's point.



* I disagree - people join the BNP because they are ill-informed xenophobes, and for no other reason. This is not to say that anyone who has a concern about migration and culture and so forth is a xenophobe (another caricature view), but such genuine concerns do not lead to the BNP; xenophobia does.

[Jim Jones]

The fear of racial unrest peaked after the Bradford riots and certainly had an impact on police and social service actions in relation to one such gang grooming case I know of from a few years ago.

More worryingly is ourinability to effectively parent (ie care for and protect), the most vulnerable children in our society.

I worked in the 70s and 80s in Child and Adolescent Mental Healh, as the senior nurse in an inpatieint unit. We were well staffed with highly qualified and experienced professional staff, the most junior of which still held psychology degrees.

The local authority residential childrens' homes were understaffed, often with only one person holding any formal qualification. We could, following protocols, lock the doors of the unit, and "special" particular at risk children. The care homes had no powers even to stop pocket money, let alone say to a child (under 16) that they were "grounded" and keep them in.

Things seem to be unchanged or worse. Gove is taking action, so we can all relax

[Paul_Sengupta]

I think that the issues of gender and culture are at least as important if not more important here than issues of race (Pakistanis being a national or ethnic group, in any event, and not a race).

When we casually talk about "race" and racism, are we not generally talking about national or ethnic groupings, possibly even religious groupings, rather than the proper use of race?

[Gerard Clarke]

Yes. Race is a stupid word, as there is only one race of humans. The DNA difference between a tall blonde white skinned Finn and a short dark haired brown skinned Fijian is tiny. By race, we mean national or ethnic origin, or sometimes a cultural grouping.

[BlackheathBloke]

I think another worrying aspect of the whole case is the imbecile Nick Griffin tweeting the guilty verdicts the day before the jury announced them.

The perps are now appealing as a result of this (although apparently the judge did cover it during sentencing, so it would appear any appeal is futile.)

[Gerard Clarke]

If Griffin was just speculating and making trouble, as is his wont, then fine, but if there is any evidence that a juror told Griffin of the verdict before it was announced, that might merit a retrial, because of the possibility that one or more members of the jury was or were tainted by xenophobic attitudes (as why else would a juror break jury secrecy rules and inform the BNP leader of what was happening?).

[SteveN]

On a positive note, it good to see the Judge taking racism into consideration when sentencing all criminals now not just white ones.

[Timothy]

the possibility that one or more members of the jury was or were tainted by xenophobic attitudes

If you take 12 people at random, what are the chances that none of them is tainted by xenophobic attitudes?

[Gerard Clarke]

Hard to say. I am not keen on US style voir dire jury selection trials, but maybe they will develop here.

[Gerard Clarke]

On a positive note, it good to see the Judge taking racism into consideration when sentencing all criminals now not just white ones.

Judges have been doing this for ages, but it is rarely reported in the media. The widespread assumption that rules about discrimination only apply in one direction is media-fuelled and incorrect.