Another e-petition to sign, please!

[Keef]

I just got back from an interesting meeting. I'm told (not checked yet) that Wakefield Cathedral was in the middle of some major restoration work, and has had to stop because it doesn't have the funds to pay the VAT now to be added to the repair bill. As a charity, it's not allowed to incur expense it can't pay.

Edit: seems to be true - per the BBC.

[Bill Haddow]

I'm told (not checked yet) that Wakefield Cathedral was in the middle of some major restoration work, and has had to stop because it doesn't have the funds to pay the VAT now to be added to the repair bill.

Keef,
I don't understand the bit about "VAT now to be added to the repair bill". Repairs were standard rated for VAT, it was alterations which were zero rated, now to be standard rated. Even the Beeb report refers to "alterations", not repairs.

Bill H

[Carole P]

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/tiin-4806.pdf

This makes for interesting reading and one assumes the Wakefield Cathedral entered into a contract before March of this year

[JoeC]

With £4.4 billion in assets and an investment income of £160m per year plus £750m coming from worshippers the CoE is hardly broke.

[JoeC]

PS: I like churches and have no axe to grind with the CoE. If Waky Cathedral has been caught out by new legislation then that is unfair and there should be an implementation period. I would guess not and they are being cautious until advice is given. Meanwhile those anti this legislation (ie those who fed the story to the BBC and are garnering support around it) are using the CoE and the Cathedral for PR purposes to support their side of the argument.

[rustle]

The church wouldn't lie about this sort of thing. Preposterous. If they say they are "repairing" or "restoring" something that was never there it isn't their fault you didn't see it was there all along.

This tax loophole needs closing. If it is an "imposition" to have fair and equitable tax policies then I need to relearn English.

[Johnny]

The Church needs to upgrade its PR and get rid of the old girl singing. That has the same impact on the senses as some photos of Triumph & BMW motorcycles on another thread

[Keef]

With £4.4 billion in assets and an investment income of £160m per year plus £750m coming from worshippers the CoE is hardly broke.

Sadly, that has to pay all the staff and the pensions. It's nowhere near enough for that, which is why paid clergy are now a rare commodity and budgets are hard to balance. Round here it's typically one paid priest between six to ten churches, and when one of them retires, the usual next step is a review of options.

Here, we have three churches and no paid staff - we're an experiment in all-self-supporting ministry. There is a certain amount of New Testament precedent for that: usually referred to as tent-making. But rich we aren't, as a church. Very, very few are.

It's unfortunate that Wakefield had started work (after years of fundraising) to be caught out by the chancellor.

[Carole P]

Have you read my link Keef where it shows that if the contract has been agreed prior to the March date then they are not subject to VAT up to March 2013 and that Church buildings can apply to HMRC to a fund anyway? To me Wakefield are making waves they don't need to make

[JoeC]

Its not all spent on pensions/wages. Looks like about 10% of the £1000 million the church spends goes on repairs...

Around £110 million is currently spent on repairs to Church of England churches per annum, 70% of it raised by the congregations and local community.

http://www.churchofengland.org/about-us ... stats.aspx

[Keef]

Have you read my link Keef where it shows that if the contract has been agreed prior to the March date then they are not subject to VAT up to March 2013 and that Church buildings can apply to HMRC to a fund anyway? To me Wakefield are making waves they don't need to make

I have, but I don't know the details of the Wakefield case or how long it will take to completion. Some cathedral restoration and reordering jobs take several years. The folks at Wakefield are under the impression they are subject to 20% and have therefore had to stop work. Legally, they can't commission work they can't pay for.

The Listed Places of Worship scheme is restricted in how it can be used - we've not qualified under it thus far so I don't know the details. The more usual route is restoration (more major than "repair") and that was until now VAT-free for listed properties with LBC.

[Keef]

Its not all spent on pensions/wages. Looks like about 10% of the £1000 million the church spends goes on repairs...

Around £110 million is currently spent on repairs to Church of England churches per annum...

So that goes up to £132 million as of this year. Or, more likely, stays around £110 million and more churches get more dilapidated because they can't afford the repairs.

I just (this morning) sent off an application for consent for works costing about £150k to restore parts of our Grade I church; we're lucky that we have funding for further work (which may have to be cut back) so we can cover the VAT.

[Carole P]

Places of Worship - Listed places of worship will also be affected by the
change, although our evidence suggests that places of worship form only
a small minority of the total number of listed properties in the UK. These
will be predominantly used by Christian denominations. In order to
mitigate the impacts on these groups the DCMS is expanding the existing
Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme which refunds the VAT on repairs
and maintenance work, so that this includes approved alterations to listed
buildings.

[Keef]

That's the HMRC headline. The reality is that it refunds very much less than the total VAT paid. We've not used it; I'm told it's better than nothing but beset with pitfalls.

[Carole P]

So you say as a charity you have to ensure you don't spend any more money than necessary, VAT is a necessity so no charity can complain if the contract includes that and you say that you won't use a scheme which refunds VAT? I don't know how much it refunds but as a Treasurer of both public and private monies for two separate groups I accept any refund I can get and ensure I apply for any I can.