Japanese Zero

[Leaky Mick]

and this forum has become as dull as ditchwater

In the interests of comedic effect, I tried very hard to think of something funny to say about ditch water; there isn't.

But, while looking at the Internet for inspiration, I inadvertently found something quite interesting - as you do.

The year 1940, in the Gregorian Calendar, translates as the year 2600 in the Japanese Imperial Calendar. And, in the Japanese Imperial year of 2600, a new naval fighter came into service. It was the protocol of the Japanese military to name its aircraft after the last digit of the year that the particular aircraft came into service.

So, the new naval fighter was named 'Zero'.

Aircraft names. There's an interesting subject.

[Rob P]

Or to give it its full name "Reisen Kanjikisen" which means "Zero Celebration Carrier-based Fighter Aircraft."

Rob P

[Flintstone]

Or to give it its full name "Reisen Kanjikisen"

I love those toffees.

Giving aircraft numbers instead of names is boring. We need more aircraft like the Tingle. Actually, given that the only example of a Tingle (aircraft that is) crashed on take-off with two fatalities that's a poor example. How about a Gobosh? Or hark back to the old days of the Camel. Who thought it was a good idea name an aircraft a Camel?

[Leaky Mick]

"Zero Celebration Carrier-based Fighter Aircraft."

That is interesting Rob P. I didn't know that.

The 'official' name carries with it all the dead weight of an over-weening government bureaucracy. 'Zero' is much snappier.

Perhaps the most interesting question is what did the pilots call it?

In fact. That is probably the most interesting question about any aircraft.

[Leaky Mick]

The 'Avro Aldershot'.

I mean. Have you ever been to Aldershot?

[spaughty]

Rob P wrote:
Or to give it its full name "Reisen Kanjikisen" which means "Zero Celebration Carrier-based Fighter Aircraft."

I asked a Japanese speaker about this.

"Reisen Kanjikisen" drew a bit of a blank: "Cold-War Snow-shoes ship" came closest to making sense.

Wikipedia has: "零式艦上戦闘機 rei-shiki-kanjou-sentouki" (your browser may not do the kanji)
which literally means "zero-style big-boat on-top war fighting craft", so I suspect that is the proper name.

[Rob P]

Fascinating.

Are there solid rules for translating the sounds appropriate to each pictogram into our 26 character alphabet, or does one just take a best shot which might vary depending on the native language of the translator?

Rob P

[spaughty]

Fascinating.

Are there solid rules for translating the sounds appropriate to each pictogram into our 26 character alphabet, or does one just take a best shot which might vary depending on the native language of the translator?

Rob P

It is fiendishly difficult. Japanese has 4 writing systems:

Romaji: basically the letters we are familiar with (=Roman characters). There are two very similar version.
Hiragana: a phonetic script (kana), used to "spell out" words syllable by syllable
Katakana: another kana, very popular with the WW2 military, so mainly used for foreign words now.
Kanji: pictograms of Chinese origin, which are used for everything except foreign words and grammatical markers.

There are exact transliterations between the two kana, and well-defined transliterations between kana and the two version of romaji.

So for example "Hitachi" and the rarer "Hitati" are the two romaji versions of the company name, ひたち is hiragana,　ヒタチ is katakana, and　日立 is kanji.

But the sounds are not unique. In our context, "sen" could mean: war, boat, or fighting machine as part of a two-kanji word, in addition to "line" or "thousand" as a word on its own. "Rei" could mean "cold" or the digit "zero". To make it worse, individual characters like 日 can have different meanings, e.g. sun, day and Sunday. And even the same character used with the same meaning will typically have two sounds, a Chinese word associated with the character and a Japanese word that has the same meaning.

Just speculating now: possibly "rei sen" could be "zero fighting machine", and "snow-shoes ship" is some kind of slang , like "flat-top"? I really don't know.

[Ian Melville]

Wikipedia has: "零式艦上戦闘機 rei-shiki-kanjou-sentouki" (your browser may not do the kanji)
which literally means "zero-style big-boat on-top war fighting craft", so I suspect that is the proper name.

I have a very detailed book on the Zero, all in Japanese, that confirms 零式艦上戦闘機 as the name used, it does not have a translation. In another book the translation is stated as Rei Shiki Sento Ki, shortened to Rei-Sen, or Reisen, which was the name associated with it by the Japanese at large. "Reisen" is one of a few Romaji words used in the Japanese book.

I don't know how this fits in? Cannot speak or read the lingo

Can do scans of some pages of the Japanese book if it would help?

[spaughty]

That explains it all, I think. Rei Sen is the abbreviation.

So, kanji by kanji:

"Rei" is short for "Rei Shiki" which is "zero-digit style" or perhaps "zero-digit ceremony"
and
"Sen" is short for "Sen Tou Ki" (sometimes written as Sen To Ki with a long "o") which is "war fighting craft" or "fighter aircraft".

"Kan Jou" is aboard a big ship, so Rei-Shiki Kan-Jou Sen-Tou-Ki is zero-styled ship-borne fighter-aircraft.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't read Japanese in any form, but have a nodding acquaintance with the language structure as a martial artist.

The language tends to the conceptual in many descriptions, and it's not necessarily wise to look for literal translations.

So, a favourite throw of mine is koshi-garuma, or hip wheel, which is fairly self explanatory. You rotate your opponent like a wheel around your hip.

Another favourite is O-soto-gari, which translates as major outer reaping. This is a standing throw that involves pushing your opponents head backwards whilst sweeping his near ankle towards you with your lower calf. With the best will in the world, "major outer reaping" just doesn't describe that - the principles are largely conceptual.


The other thing to be aware of is that there are sounds which are different to a Japanese ear, but sound the same to the Anglophone ear, and tend to be written the same in roman letters. So for example I regularly use the two words...

(1) Jitsu = a fighting system, and

(2) Jitsu = a state of concentrated chi.

I'm reliably assured that to a Japanese native these sound and are quite different words. I suppose to me it's just like "set" and "set" in English - just judge the meaning from the context.


Abbreviations of words are certainly common in spoken Japanese.

Ichi (one) is often spoken as "Ich", for a simple example, and there are contextual issues to when it's abbreviated, and I've noticed that certain martial traditions have particular ways of abbreviating words. I'd be surprised if that didn't extend into aeronautical / martial use of Japanese. Mind you, western non-speakers also tend to be incredibly lazy in merging syllables that shouldn't be merged with each other. For example the turning wrist: ko-te-ga-esh-i, is far too often pronouced "kotagesh", losing two syllables along the way, for no reason but laziness.

G

[Leaky Mick]

I have always been impressed by the perspicacity of Admiral Yamamoto's remark after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor:

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

[Leaky Mick]

Are there any 'real' Zeros still alive, well and flying?

[Rob P]

One real one, a couple of real airframes with American engines and a handful of T6 that were tricked up to look like Zeros for Tora x3

Rob P

[Genghis the Engineer]

Are there any 'real' Zeros still alive, well and flying?

One, it's in the "planes of fame" museum at Chino.



G