Saturday 18 May 2013 14:14 UTC
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Where he spectacularly misses the point - presumably deliberately - is that they had more than one thing in common, and people are focusing on the things that they had in common, because there are very good reasons for seeing those factors as having a cultural bearing on the crimes (as the judge pointed out).
They weren't all taxi drivers. If they had been all taxi drivers, or all bank managers, or all politicians, or all all teachers, or all policemen, or all long-distance lorry drivers, then for sure people would be framing this and talking about it as a taxi driver / bank manager / politician / whatever problem as well as talking about it in other contexts.
Mr Afzal might have been on stronger ground had any of the victims been Muslim - they weren't, and were never likely to be. I don't want to see anybody fanning the flames of racial (or ethnic, religious or anything else) intolerance, but nor do I want to see the Islamic community in defensive denial.
A similar line was on the Beeb on Saturday from a female Muslim academic - that the problem is men rather than specifically Muslims - behaviour as soon as normal sanctions are not available - both domestically and outside their normal environment. A good bit of that is true - a bit like everyone behaving badly on holiday.
The second point she made was also sound and specific - sexual repression in the Pakistani (and other) Muslim cultures.
The cure does not appear to be multiculturalism - this is one area where "Western values" - at least since the 1960s - should prevail.
Cheering up a bit with grumpy spells later
I was thinking about the endemic child abuse in the Catholic church, exposed in many countries, in relation to this. It looks like the mixture of male dominated cultures, where men also write the "rule books", seems to lead to the abuse of the vulnerable.
Well, that's just bollocks.
Men in general do not go around drugging and raping women and under-age girls. They just don't. Not at home, not on holiday, regardless of whether or not they think they will be caught. And for this academic, and Afzal, to try to smear 50 % of the population of the world with the disgusting crimes of these individuals, in an attempt to muddy the water, is a disgrace.
I worked in Pakistan for a while, and many of the girls working for me would club together to come to work by taxi as men would "touch them"-their words, on public transport. There is a definite "attitude problem" with women and generally not much respect.
Many men that I met thought women were incapable of being independent and always needed a man. One young lady that I met at the local flying club was trying to get a CPL--no mean feat out there--very determined,she was quite exceptional.
One guy i knew , westernised uk graduate, asked me why the UK allowed so many uneducated "VILLAGE PEOPLE " to enter the UK.
Denial of the problem is not the answer.
True, and I agree that there is a real problem arising from poor cultural attitudes and actions; but, ROG, we also have plenty of uneducated people that are home grown, and many of them behave very badly in a variety of ways. I have noticed that you rarely if ever start threads about criminality by white Brits. There is of course a great deal of that, including offences against children, and much bad parenting. I'm just, as they say, saying.
Egypt and Turkey are notorious for that.
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It seems to me that there are two, inter-related, problems in large parts of the Islamic community within the UK, both imported from the nations from which the individuals, or their families, originally hailed.
The first is the medieval belief that women are a sub-species of humanity, dependent upon, and subservient to, males. This is evident in the visible things, like burkas intended to preserve the female beauty for the husband alone because she is his possession, but less so in subtle things like not allowing women in the family to drive or learn English. There are obvious dangers in this attitude for wider society, not least in the electoral process with postal voting where the (male) head of the household determines how each ballot paper is marked.
The second is the assumption that women of other faiths are unworthy of the "respect" to which their own are. This is reinforced in the minds of traditional ultra-orthodox Muslims by western dress, social customs and equal rights between genders. It is this attitude that was at play here, and for anyone to suggest that these animals are representative of men at large is absurd and deeply offensive.
The stark fact is that adherence to the strictest interpretation of radical Islamic teachings, as practised by the closed communities in some of our cities, is, and always will be, incompatible with our modern western way of life. Moderate Muslims understand this and have integrated well without compromising their core beliefs, in much the same way as previous immigrant communities have done. Those who refuse to accept this truth need to be openly challenged, both from within in and without the wider Islamic community, and without those challenging suffering the fear of being branded racist or needing to comply with some misguided concept of misplaced and unnecessary sensitivity. As with most things, proper education is the key.
It's not just muslim countries, it's a recognised problem in Japan too.
And a quick google says Korea too.
Where do they stay, at the YMCA?
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