Beardy Abu Bloke on his travels to the USA

[Gerard Clarke]

Only connect! If we let things continue to go all ratshtye in dusty places, then the consequences for us may be grave. Everything joins up. We have allowed crappo regimes to carry on in many hot places, and they have spawned opponents, some of whom now want to have a pop at us as well as the rubbish governments that we have supported and traded with. Altruism is enlightened self-interest, and our own back yard starts closer to our house than we might think.

Compare and contrast Rome, as usual. Century after century of endless bloody warfare at the limits of the Roman world, not because the hairies were intent (yet) on burning Rome, but to make life near Bath calm (you could go for a walk without being armed, and the houses did not have fortifications), and to stop the hairies from ultimately marching on Rome. Eventually, the system broke down, and the hairies did indeed burn Rome, and Bath, and many places besides. Then houses had to have fortifications again, and everyone in what had been peaceful places had to go about armed, for over a 1000 years.

[Pete L]

Huh? How on Earth is the Home Secretary or any of the lawyers or anyone else here in contempt of any court?

Some of you guys watch too much US TV, or credit too much stuff in the meeja. As T always says, please take a few minutes to familiarise yourself with our courts, based on real life ones, not telly or newspaper versions. I have been teaching 15 year olds about our system, and some of the grown ups here could do with taking the "How Brit stuff works 101" course as well.

Apologies for triggering your ignoramus filter, but are there really no court sanctions for timewasting?

It just struck me as incredible that - unlike television - Ms Peirce found the basis for an appeal with 2hr to go and managed to communicate that when there could have been no certainty that her email /fax / courier would arrive in time - or at all.

[Gerard Clarke]

It is the intention of Qatada to make people here distrust and resent our own system of doing things. He's a terrorist, and terrorism is not just about bombs and bullets. He wants to create instability, and maybe encourage repressive responses. The worse things get, the better, in the terrorist mind set.

But the fact that AQ is still here, still taking the pish out of us, is clear evidence that we are right to distrust and resent our own system!

No, it is clear evidence that you are letting him get to you. Don't give him what he wants.

[Gerard Clarke]

Pete, that is called tactics. Cheapo tactics, but playing the system is part of the whole approach. Ms Pierce, by the way, is not a barrister, despite the nonsense in that silly film about the Guildford Four (who deserved a better film).

There can be costs sanctions for mucking about and time wasting, but putting an appeal in at the last minute is allowed. That's why there is a last minute.

[JoeC]

JAAMOI - how is a last minute appeal done? What if the last minute is at midnight and Judge Cockle-Carrot is pissed, fast asleep in his chambers or his minions are out the back playing poker and have taken the 'phone off the hook?

[Dave W]

But the fact that AQ is still here, still taking the pish out of us, is clear evidence that we are right to distrust and resent our own system!

I don't think that it is; the pish-taking is an unfortunately necessary cost of having the checks and balances that we enjoy but often do not appreciate. It's not ideal, but it's a lot less "not ideal" than having rules based on the lowest common denominator would be.

Gerard, wishy-washy metro*-lefty that he is, is quite right about all this.




*Not the car. I'm not really insulting him here.

[Sharpie]

Only connect! If we let things continue to go all ratshtye in dusty places, then the consequences for us may be grave.

Ah, the old Domino Theory!
Was used as a justification for the Vietnam war, but I don't remember us all going commie when South Vietnam fell...

[Skyhawk-N]

.

[Sharpie]

Next stop - Iraq and North Korea!

[/Dr Strangelove]

[ROG]

Why all this obsession with the daily mail if nobody reads it=or is it secretly read by Gerard and TIMMY--both seem to be fully au fait with its contents.
Surely to have any impact persons of influence must be reading it--possibly Dave has it with his boiled egg, or borrows a copy from a hoodie.

[rustle]

FWIW I think GC is bang on the money.

The problem is that it takes a certain intelligence to see that (not aimed at anyone here at all), however the average AQ follower doesn't really possess any intelligence whatsoever so will see these western prevarications as "victories".

Does that matter? I'm not sure. Maybe it does, so we should have just exported him to hell with the [non-]consequences, but maybe it doesn't and so we shouldn't abandon even for a nanosecond our own [good] practices.

[JoeC]

[gast] Flabbered [/gast]

[Sharpie]

Does that matter? I'm not sure. Maybe it does, so we should have just exported him to hell with the [non-]consequences, but maybe it doesn't and so we shouldn't abandon even for a nanosecond our own [good] practices.

I'm cool with that and I agree with the principle.
I think, however, that our own good practices stretch a little too far and are far too generous.
The AQ situation has been thrashed many times by the powers that be, judgements have been made and yet here we go around the maypole again.

It may be a matter of personal judgement, but mine is that the good practices are perhaps a little too good.

[Dave Phillips]

I doubt AQ could so much as botty burp without the security services knowing. I'm quite happy for him to play the legal system as, in a perverse sense, it educates us as to how the system can be refined. Gerard obviously has a handle on things and the impression I get is that AQ will ultimately face a just hearing. The only thing that irritates is the fact it costs money, not least because of very expensive people like Gerard.

[rustle]

Does that matter? I'm not sure. Maybe it does, so we should have just exported him to hell with the [non-]consequences, but maybe it doesn't and so we shouldn't abandon even for a nanosecond our own [good] practices.

I'm cool with that and I agree with the principle.
I think, however, that our own good practices stretch a little too far and are far too generous.
The AQ situation has been thrashed many times by the powers that be, judgements have been made and yet here we go around the maypole again.

It may be a matter of personal judgement, but mine is that the good practices are perhaps a little too good.

I understand that completely, and in the context of this discussion it does appear to be skewed or, in your words, "a little too good".

You could even go as far as to say this person seems to have been better protected by UK/EU process than the UK Citizen recently sent to the US for alleged arms-dealing crimes.

But in my opinion that misses the point slightly. Our system is not perfect, and this odious/obnoxious oik** is playing it, but I'd still rather have all our protections for these people than abandon them [our principles/systems] and risk sinking to their barbaric, unintelligent, level.

I have far more an issue with white trash abusing the system (like welfare) because they have had every opportunity to know better but choose to rip us off.

The idiots we are discussing here never have, no matter how shrewd their advocates are: They never stood a chance to be anything but scum because they're stupid ignorant uneducated oafs and we, as a responsible society, have to acknowledge this.

The balance to that is whether, as I wrote earlier, the other disciples of these morons think they've "won" (for even a second) and whether that actually matters (for even a second).

That, to me, is a much more difficult question, however I have to say I'm with GC on this.

** Where I disagree with GC is that he started this thread about AH "going to America" according to the title, and it is now all about AQ going to Jordan.