MDR- a Help to Div Nav?!

[Paul_Sengupta]

However when a friend and I used to practice microlight formation flying, we got much joy from run and breaks in a pair of microlights doing 50 knots

On the Flyer fly-out, we took a pair of Bulldogs to Templehof, overnighting in Lille. We did a run in and break at both, but Lille didn't quite get the concept. We were doing about 150 knots on final when they cleared us to land!

[Mark R]

What is a deadside join, as opposed to crosswind?

It's where you fly parallel to the runway heading on the deadside before turning crosswind.
e.g. If you were arriving from a direction that would favour a straight-in approach, but they were not allowed, or the circuit was busy.

So far, I've never done one, as it's seems like a bad idea to do one unless it is the standard procedure. As you are likely to find other people doing overhead joins.

Are there any civilian airfields where it is the preferred way of joining?

[Keef]

we took a pair of Bulldogs to Tempelhof ... a run in and break

Do you know how much effort it took beforehand to get clearance for that run-and-break?
And then you rotten lot went and did it while I was in town sorting the evening's feeding frenzy.

[Iolanthe]

Rich T wrote:
What is a deadside join, as opposed to crosswind?

It's where you fly parallel to the runway heading on the deadside before turning crosswind.
e.g. If you were arriving from a direction that would favour a straight-in approach, but they were not allowed, or the circuit was busy.

So far, I've never done one, as it's seems like a bad idea to do one unless it is the standard procedure. As you are likely to find other people doing overhead joins.

Mark and Rich,
The "Deadside" join is what we fly as the "Standard Military join" which is more generally called an "Initials Join" or "joining through Initials". As I described above, this is where we call Initials over the Initial point about a mile from the active threshold. We fly in at circuit height (800ft) and this gives a perfect opportunity to see the circuit traffic whiclt not trying to postion or downwind checks/make calls etc. This means that when we cross the crosswind end of the runway, we are already at 800ft, know whats in the cct and can make our calls, checks accordingly. From a Students perspective its a much better join than the overhead, as the workload is less; consequenltly I try to join through Initials whenever I can.

But there again, my PPL training is at an active military airfield so procedures and my priorites may well be different from GA - which is why I started this thread as I am interested in those difference!

[Rob P]

we call Initials over the Initial point about a mile from the active threshold.

In what direction?

Most of what you describe is a fairly standard crosswind join.

Maybe a diagram would help?

Rob P

[Mark R]

Maybe a diagram would help?

There's a diagram of military circuits on page 6 of this document http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL26.pdf

[Rob P]

Many thanks

The “military standard join” shown above involves approaching parallel with the runway in use from an “initial point” outside the ATZ on the dead side of the runway centreline, at circuit height or lower.

Rob P

[Iolanthe]

The “military standard join” shown above involves approaching parallel with the runway in use from an “initial point” outside the ATZ on the dead side of the runway centreline, at circuit height or lower.

Couldn't have put it better myself

I

[Rob P]

[Paul_Sengupta]

we took a pair of Bulldogs to Tempelhof ... a run in and break

Do you know how much effort it took beforehand to get clearance for that run-and-break?

Yup, thanks Keef!

And then you rotten lot went and did it while I was in town sorting the evening's feeding frenzy.

And a fine and memorable feast it was, so we thank you for that too!

We'll have to try and arrange to do one at your strip at some point!

[Iolanthe]

Right, to post a longer post!

Also haven't heard about an ILS join. Sounds like joining on a 5 mile final or part of an instrument approach.
Climb outs you would be instructed to go to a specific location / bearing / route - or you just go, but at PPL level they aren't codified. (I believe there would be "standard instrument departures" if you are following IR - but not VFR).

In answer to Riverrock's point above, not totally clear on ILS joins, as they are indeed instrument approaches. I have "flown" one in the KingAir Sim but that was just having a play! Climb outs, we did an instrument departure the other day - not PPL as you say, but as something different and as it was a working day, the Tower wanted us to conform with teh RAF traffic so.....

No MATZ but instead Class D controlled airspace at my airfield - but it will vary, from what I've got to just an ATZ to nothing. No problems during the week though - commercial traffic is pretty much the same every day for me, and at many GA airfield, they will be busier at weekends.

I guess thats where we have it easier, as flying at the weekends and summer evenings, the Tower is closed (unless 7AEF are flying) and we have the airfield to ourselves - nice when you don't have to waste 20mins holding whilst seemingly the entire air force lands! I'm so used to a MATZ and stubs that when flying through anyone elses, they don't phase me at all.

Flaps is airplane specific. Bulldog is intermediate flaps for takeoff. Do what is says in the POH. Haven't heard of needing to use full flaps before though! Sounds like a touch and go gone wrong...

Yep, but its also, what ones very experienced CFI tells you to do!! We fly touch and goes with full flap as a matter of course (there was a huge discussion on this on "the other side" which I am sure forumites here will remember if they also used that....)

Safety -are Civ airfield SOPs as mad as ours are reference FOD?

I suspect much more relaxed. Depends what you might damage though!

True, like potentially taxiing a Tiger into a 109!

Well, hopefully, i'll be flying ccts "at home" tomorrow and kill the demon which seems to have built up in my head since Sturgate. My FI is also talking getting my solo hours up too!

I

[Paul_Sengupta]

nice when you don't have to waste 20mins holding whilst seemingly the entire air force lands!

Are you sure it's *not* the entire airforce?

[Iolanthe]

Iolanthe wrote:
nice when you don't have to waste 20mins holding whilst seemingly the entire air force lands!


Are you sure it's *not* the entire airforce?

I wouldn't be surprised given the cutbacks Paul.... But at least the number of Tutors flying means that they are still training ab initio RAF Pilots!

[BlackadderIA]

Oddly, I'm also learning at a military airfield (not a million miles from Cranwell either) and yet we don't do initials joins, don't to sector recce and I didn't do oval circuits until after first solo.
PFLs are taught using high and low keys though but that's probably down to the instructors being ex mil.

[Iolanthe]

HI Blackadder,

Thats odd, I would ahve thought that INitials joins and ovals were standard trianing for military airfields.

I think I know where you are... but I guess even between RAF flying clubs there is a difference; it maybe depends on the CFI (and I know yours ) or on the instructor......