MDR- a Help to Div Nav?!

[BlackadderIA]

I didn't think it would be that different between RAF Clubs until I saw your posts on sector recce, initials joins and all the other good stuff like wearing a gro-bag. It sounds like you're doing EFTS!
It's now 800ft oval circuits here when other mil traffic is in the pattern but is your choice when operating under 'flying club rules' with no ATC. To be honest though it's been mainly base joins for me recently as I'm on the cross country nav and need to save the pennies!
Just out of interest are you allowed to say how much you're paying for your shiney Grob? £100ph here for my little PA-28 plus another £25 to have someone who knows what they're doing come along too.

[Iolanthe]

That may be because we are on the same Station as EFTS!!

We fly 800ft and ovals circuits as a matter of course. Unless of course its low level (500ft), or glide circuit adding 500ft to all the figures; that includes when we're on "Flying Club rules". ...then theres the military procedures (in briefs, out briefs, "T cards", snow and ice plan, crash and smash plan...)

Base joins, hmmm, i've only ever flown those at Duxford!

Cost, well, I can tell you roughly as I tend to pay £500 into my "account" at the CLub and just take the required amount each time off the total. Its around £108ph to fly the Grobs solo (thats wet) per hour and about £95 per hour on the Firefly (but thats dry). Then its around £25 SCT on top of that. Then its £20 per ground exam... but that goes to the Club as a kind of a donation so I don't mind!!

I did look at your place when I was thinking of learning, and I did notice it was cheaper, but then I didn't want to learn in a Cessna, and I work literally over the road from our club so it was really a no brainer!

I'm assuming your instructors are volunteers too?

[BlackadderIA]

Sounds like I'm paying £8ph less than you to learn in PA28' everything else is the same price. Hmmm...

Instructors are all volunteers and a mix of ex mil and civilian.

P.s. Sorry for the delay, currently in a Desert courtesy of the queen!

[Iolanthe]

Blackadder,
Well, if you fancy learning in a Grob rather than a PA28 or Cessna, you know where I am..I would say PM me, but I haevn't yet worked out how to use PMs on this forum! BUt go to the Club website, my contact details are on there...i'm the only female member of the committee so its pretty easy to work out!

I

[Keef]

PMs are easy ... I was going to send you a PM explaining it, but that isn't going to work...

The simple way:

To send a PM: by each person's name over on the left, there's a little icon with "PM" under it. Click on that to PM that person.

If you have PMs, you should get a pop-up to tell you, but you will also see at the top of your screen "User Control Panel (N new messages)"
If you click on the "N new messages" it will take you to them.

Once you're in that PM screen (the click will take you there even if you have no new messages), there is the option to "Compose message" as well as various options to read them.

When you send a message, it will go into "Outbox" until the recipient has read it. It then moves to "Sent messages".

Easy, innit!

[Iolanthe]

PM duly sent Keef! Thanks

[Iolanthe]

Today I was chatting with one of our Air Traffickers for a work related issue but (surprise surprise) we got onto chatting about flying. I asked him whether he thought we (the CLub) would be able to fly at the weekend (airfield currently "Red"). He said it was possible and to check with the Tower on Friday. The probvlem being that there are "Ice Mushrooms" all over the runway and not just at the edge. If they were jsut at the edge that would be ok, but not all over (well, I wouldn't WANT to take off with that being the case!)

Not having heard this term before I asked and he explained that when the water gets through the tarmac cracks, it expands, expanding tarmac and cracks and comes onto the surface in a mushroom shaped ice pocket.

I just wondered whether this was a term which was used at Civvy airfields or whether it was another military-ism!

As to the other thread which says suggests that we may like to visit the Tower...well, theres always the other way around too...he's never seen our Hangar so I invited him over....

[Iolanthe]

I've been discussing my trip last week with my usual FI. I am now confused over the use of MDR (Mental Dead Reckoning) as a method of determining drift and thus new heading for the wv. is it for PPL or not?

Reason I ask as there seems to be a difference of opinion. My usual FI (been instructing military pilots all his career) teaches whizz wheel for PPL but also introduced me to MDR and the "Clock method". He says that MDR is not really PPL syllabus but can be useful for quick mental gymnastics when flying eg for a div (mental maths on the ground in a quiet room is hardly my strong point, let alone in the air when driving an aeroplane!)

On the other hand our CFI and now my "other FI" , said yeah, use the whizz wheel for the nav exam, then throw it away, MDR is much quicker and easier (eh? easier?!) He then showed me (too quickly for my poor brain) how to allow for the drift which we had on Wednesday...a guestimate which was slightly wrong in the end. He also did this "leaning on the wing" style at Elvington for our return. i was trying to follow it, but need a lot more work. He is an RAF pilot of many years (with CAA FI rating), flies RAF aircraft, examines RAF pilots and MDR is the Air Force way of Nav calculations for drift....

So I wondered, what have other studes been taught, or is this just another quirk of my semi military/semi civvy flying training?

[Keef]

I suspect it may be a "language" thing, like oval versus rectangular* circuits. One of the ex-mil FIs may be able to clarify.

I still have my whizzwheel, preserved in fond memory of when I knew how to drive it. It is calibrated in Roman numerals, but hey! I don't think I've touched it, other than to stroke it, since 1982.

Once past the PPL, I used mental arithmetic - mostly the one-in-sixty rule - for nav calculations. That, or look out of the window and pick out the land features, or if all else fails, follow the magenta line. I suspect MDR (not to be confused with MDA or MEDA) is military for "mental ariffmetic".

- - - - -
* Mine aren't rectangular: they have rounded corners, sometimes very rounded corners.

[Yankee-K]

I'm not sure if you are expected to use the whizzwheel during the flying part of skills test but I wouldn't like to.
I think you would spend too much time 'looking in' trying to work the thing as well as yet another bit of kit to get in the way.

I would much sooner use the 'clock' method, but I'll let you know when I start navigation in earnest

[Rob P]

I suspect MDR (not to be confused with MDA or MEDA) is military for "mental ariffmetic".

Or "educated guess"?

Rob P

[Keef]

Same difference, innit.

A bit like "military intelligence".

[ASI]

So I wondered, what have other studes been taught, or is this just another quirk of my semi military/semi civvy flying training?

Iolanthe, I really wouldn't get too held up on the background to your training.

Like you, my formative flying training was done in a psuedo-military environment which largely mirrored the RAF's EFT syllabus. I used to read a reasonable amount of stuff online and on forums from other PPL students who were discussing the difficulties of grasping techniques that I had never even heard about!

Ultimately however, in pursuit of a PPL, you are examined to exactly the same standard as anyone else who is after a PPL. What examiners are really interested in is your ability to meet the requirements of the test in a safe manner. The technique you use to achieve that is almost irrelevant provided that what you're doing is safe and effective. If you can demonstrate this to an examiner, be it using a whizz wheel, MDR, wind stars or whatever...it will be a pass.

Now with specific regard to MDR, it's a very useful tool in the cockpit to reduce calculating drift and making timing corrections to something you can do in your head. It is a simplification however, one that works, but an approximation none the less. Therefore my approach has been that for planning simple VFR Nav sorties, in-flight planning and things of that nature, I use MDR. However when I have the opportunity to take a little time about things, such as in CAA written exams or producing a PLOG for a long sortie, I will use a whizz wheel (or now I'm no longer a student, electronic gadgets such as Skydemon or RocketRoute). If you take additional ratings in the future, such as the IMC rating, MDR alone will probably not get you through the exam, but will be a huge aid when you're working your way around an instrument approach!

What the military teach for flying light aircraft is very good and comprehensive, but critically it isn't the only way, and is not always the best way relative to your personal strengths and abilities. EFT is very focussed on producing students with sufficient capacity to move on to flying larger and more demanding aircraft. MDR becomes much easier at fast jet speeds for example (i.e. hacking around at 420 kts), but isn't as convenient if you're only making 70 knots in a little plane.

Anyway, long and short of it - embrace the military teaching until you find something doesn't work for you, and then ask your instructors for alternatives. So long as it's of a passable standard, it doesn't matter if it's not in the EFTS syllabus

EDIT: MDR == Mental Ded (sic) Reckoning

[Pete S]

I think you have to accept that RAF pilots have no problem with MDR: they are/were once after all young, enthusiastic and have been creamed off a mighty pile of wannabees in their formative years:

It is not realistic to transfer the attribute of a good MDRer to a large number of civvy pilots, especially pilots like me who are 'kin useless at the simplest mental arithmetic. (Don't ever ask me to work out who owes what at the end of a large group curry.)

So Iolanthe if you are mathslexic and even after getting your CFI to explain MDR to you several times you still haven't got it, don't fret, move on, forget MDR and use the method you know and love.

Conquer the whizz wheel just long enough to get your PPL then buy a simple E6B electronic computer for all your post PPL needs : your life will be revolutionised.

Good luck

Peter

[Iolanthe]

Thanks for your replies chaps, that makes me feel much better.

if you are mathslexic and even after getting your CFI to explain MDR to you several times you still haven't got it, don't fret, move on, forget MDR and use the method you know and love.

Absolutely, I AM "Mathslexic" (love it! ) and I know that I need to do some simple calculations in my head when airborne (ie rough ETA at next fix or turn, or if I needed to DIV) and I am starting to manage to cope with this. But the Whizz Wheel planning for drift is much easier (am I REALLY saying that about the Whizz WHeel??!!)

embrace the military teaching until you find something doesn't work for you, and then ask your instructors for alternatives. So long as it's of a passable standard, it doesn't matter if it's not in the EFTS syllabus

What examiners are really interested in is your ability to meet the requirements of the test in a safe manner. The technique you use to achieve that is almost irrelevant provided that what you're doing is safe and effective.

Thanks ASI, thats really good to know and makes me feel happier if I don't understand something like MDR. Other military ways I do understand (like the way I plan my route and don't exactly use a plog) and use especially if they are much simpler than civvy teaching!

...and Keef... "military intelligence" Yeah, biggest oxymoron ever...a career spent working with the military...and they still never cease to amaze me!