RT brush-up

[adhawkins]

On Pass your message, I would have your route as "From Newtonards to Newtonards"

I prefer 'local flight from Kemble' (but haven't checked recently if that's strictly 'correct').

Andy

[riverrock]

CAP413 (not the supplement) http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=3441
says (Chapter 3 page 8 / 1.6.3 / page 68 in pdf)

When instructed by the ATS Unit to pass your message details, the reply should
contain the following information, whenever possible in the order specified:
a) Aircraft Callsign / Type
b) Departure Point and Destination
c) Present Position
d) Level
e) Additional details / Intention (e.g. Flight Rules, Next route point)

Personally - as long as the ATC unit understands you, and what you say doesn't involve lots of excess verbage (and not too many "um"s) then all will be happy. In some situations, what is said is much more highly regulated due to previous miss communications (such as "ready for departure", not "ready for takeoff") but that doesn't apply to "pass your message" which is intentionally flexible.

I doubt that will help me pass my RT practical though!

[greggj]

I visited local ATC (Belfast City) once, and as far as I was told - the order matters, because they write things down in that order into already small space. Hence the format.

[riverrock]

I believe that systems vary (including electronic versions) but yes- ATC normally write down your details onto a strip of paper. If you tell them things in the expected order, they can write it straight on the strip.

However the strip has specific locations for specific information. If you tell them things in the wrong order they can still put everything in the correct place - its just a very minor hassle in that they may need to think what information goes where as they do it. They do this, so if there is a gap in the information they can ask you for it.

So it is easier for everyone if the order is correct - but if it isn't, its not the end of the world. Better to communicate badly than not at all. But best if us students get it right at the beginning so that we can form good patters for life!

(I've had visits to my local ATC as well as the "Scottish Information" FIR provider, both at Prestwick).

[Lottie]

I was lucky enough to go to the Farnborough visit ATC day and they asked us to write (on their slips) what was said in a message - we did this on the basis of a few pretend calls.

One was full of "Ahh", "Err" and "umm" 's and the message did not follow the order above. The other was just out of order but said clearly and the third was spoken clearly and in order. The final message was many many times easier to jot down and whilst harder for the speaker to get right would I imagine save loads of time and repeats for the controller. It was an interesting illustration of how much harder you make the controller's life if you don't take the time/care to adopt the correct phraseology etc.

[brand1068]

One of my best days so far was doing all the RT on my last flight and getting it in the right order.

Very chuffed

[Paul_Sengupta]

Lottie - I got far more info on the one with "um"s and "er"s in it. Perhaps it's just the speed at which my brain to hand messaging works...

[akg1486]

It all looks pretty familiar greggj, but as one who hasn't studied 413 for a while I can't help wondering about this little gem

R - request (basic service/zone transit) - only if required .

If one had nothing to request of an ATSU, I wonder why you would be talking to them?

Rob P

When flying just outside a control zone, or under a terminal area, I tend to give them a call just to say that I'm there and that I won't cause any mischief. It's sort of a manual version of the listening squawks that to me sounds like a brilliant idea but that we don't have where I fly.
/Peter

[Rob P]

If you talk to an ATCO most of them say they couldn't give a monkey's.

If you are in their airspace they want to talk to you

If you are outside their airspace and need some form of service they will talk to you.

If you are outside their airspace and don't need anything - leave the transmit button alone.

Rob P

[riverrock]

Just did my RT Practical test.
I had got the impression that you needed to have a service before talking to someone, but was told in debrief (when only getting a QDM from an airfield) there was no need for this - only if you actually needed the service. Should have looked at Cap413 a bit more closely!

Also - I understood you needed separate permission for MATZ penetration and ATZ transit (normally request both in the one call). Not sure whether I missed asking for ATZ penetration but I was only cleared for MATZ penetration so asked again for ATZ penetration. Was told in debrief that my clearance included both...

Had a "good pass" - although I'm now £90 poorer

[greggj]

RT classes and exams are worth every penny in my experience. I'm back to flying now, and will need to go through it again myself - not because the exam has lapsed, but because it just instills so much confidence in one's RT. You literally cannot fly and practice RT at the same time imo.

[Rob P]

Also - I understood you needed separate permission for MATZ penetration and ATZ transit (normally request both in the one call).

I cannot give you a definitive answer on this, largely as I don't know the answer but remember...

You do not need a MATZ penetration, you are at liberty to barge through a MATZ without any permission from anybody. It is not good practice though.

You most definitely do need permission for an ATZ penetration.

Most MATZ clearances for the Lakenheath/Midlenhall CMATZ will contain the words

"MATZ penetration approved, remain clear of the ATZ"

Rob P

[Paul_Sengupta]

If you talk to an ATCO most of them say they couldn't give a monkey's.

I think it depends on the ATCO and location. For the London aerodromes, most will be too busy to care and will assume you're going to stay outside. Many others around the country want to talk to you if you're coming anywhere near their airspace.

RT classes and exams are worth every penny in my experience. I'm back to flying now, and will need to go through it again myself - not because the exam has lapsed, but because it just instills so much confidence in one's RT. You literally cannot fly and practice RT at the same time imo.

Do you know what English level you are/will be?

[riverrock]

To be honest - I can understand going to an RT class if you haven't flown before, or perhaps haven't flown for a long time, but if you are in regular practice I can't see the need to have a specific class.
My instructor went through all the calls I would need on the ground before I used them for the first time. My club also has a CD which goes through all the RT for a flight (which was useful).
Other than that - revision with help from CAP413 was all I did.

Certainly if you are near Glasgow's airspace (such as in the "Cumbernauld gap" between Edinburgh and Glasgow) Glasgow want to talk to you until you are South of them, then they will either hand you over to Prestwick or Scottish Info.

[James Chan]

When I was doing my PPL or just after my PPL, I found the use of templates very helpful in jogging my memory. So on my kneeboard I would write down a basic list of things to say before saying it, and have a list of things to expect the controller to come back with so that I could easily fill in the blanks using a pen and then read back what I've filled in.

What to say on taxi:
"_____ Ground, G-____ Cessna 152 at The Aero Club, Request Taxi for VFR Departure to ____, Information ____"
What to expect:
Holding point: ____
Taxiways to use: ____
-Departure clearance-
Assigned altitude: _____
Assigned route: _____

What to say for transit:
"_____ Approach, G-____ Cessna 152 from ____ to ____. (location) at (altitude). Request transit to ____"
What to expect:
Altimeter: QNH _____
Squawk: _____
Cleared to enter airspace: Yes / No
Assigned altitude: _____
Assigned route: _____

What to say on handoff from tower to departure:
"_____ Approach/Departure, G-____ passing ____ (current altitude) climbing ____ (cleared altitude)"

etc. etc.

Also, I found listening to liveatc.net and reading the Pilot's Radio Communications Handbook useful, but need to watch out for some American specifics and short-forms which don't always go down so well in non-English speaking places.