Building a new example of an old plane...

[petestorey]

Hi

It's a new year and looking at projects new for 2013. Something I was thinking about over Christmas was the idea of building a new plane based on an old design. It probably can't be done (or someone already would have), but I'm wondering if not, why not.

I'll take, for example, a Spitfire. There are a number of people restoring at great cost original planes, but since by and large these end up as a new plane pretending to be an original (i.e. they retain little of their original parts), why can't you simply (ahem) take the original blueprints, and build a new one from them?

I assume here that a) you could get the blueprints, b) you could obtain a licence from whoever owns it to build from them, and c) you had funds to do so?

Unlike say the car market where modern regulations essentially put paid to recreating older cars, and so restoration is essential, this doesn't seem to be the case for aircraft?

Anyway, just a thought for something to spend my lottery winnings on. When I eventually buy a ticket. Don't want to waste money buying one until I know what to spend the millions on after all...

Pete

[eltonioni]

If you can get the tooling you're away, but therein is your biggest problem I reckon, and I don't think that any amount of money is the answer unless you have enough patience to match your rapidly emptying wallet. You might as well buy a real one.

About 30 years ago I was at Rochester with a chap who was hand rolling a sheet of aluminium into the lower engine cowl for either a Spitfire or Hurricane. It involved a huge number of hours of highly skilled manual labour to produce what would once have been stamped out by the hundred per day by a factory worker.

[Grelly]

Digressing just slightly...

I have often wondered what could be achieved if we took old designs and re-worked them using modern tooling, materials and knowledge. Would a next gen Spitfire look much like the old?

Feel free to drag the thread back on topic...

[BobM]

Piper did it with the P51..

always fancied one!

[Paul_Sengupta]

I'll take, for example, a Spitfire. There are a number of people restoring at great cost original planes, but since by and large these end up as a new plane pretending to be an original (i.e. they retain little of their original parts), why can't you simply (ahem) take the original blueprints, and build a new one from them?

I think certification is the thing. A new one would have to be certified. A restoration of an old one, well, not, as it's "repaired" to the original diagrams.

Though having said that...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/basic/brand-new-fw-190-a8-n-8341.html

http://www.retrothing.com/2009/09/me-262-project.html

[Keef]

That may be what the Burma effort will achieve. If they find just the serial number plates of a load of Spitfires, they can "rebuild" them round that plate and they aren't "new".

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi

It's a new year and looking at projects new for 2013. Something I was thinking about over Christmas was the idea of building a new plane based on an old design. It probably can't be done (or someone already would have), but I'm wondering if not, why not.

I'll take, for example, a Spitfire. There are a number of people restoring at great cost original planes, but since by and large these end up as a new plane pretending to be an original (i.e. they retain little of their original parts), why can't you simply (ahem) take the original blueprints, and build a new one from them?

I assume here that a) you could get the blueprints, b) you could obtain a licence from whoever owns it to build from them, and c) you had funds to do so?

Unlike say the car market where modern regulations essentially put paid to recreating older cars, and so restoration is essential, this doesn't seem to be the case for aircraft?

Anyway, just a thought for something to spend my lottery winnings on. When I eventually buy a ticket. Don't want to waste money buying one until I know what to spend the millions on after all...

Pete

It's do-able, but don't anticipate that the PTB will simply let you build a replica oldun without modification.

I've been playing around for a year or so with designs for a replica Hurricane, and am under no illusions that what I'd end up with is a Hurricane shaped new aeroplane, which would require certification as a new design and build.

A genuine historic aircraft has a certain level of grandfather rights, so long as it really is the original aeroplane. But, the way the authorities will treat it will depend to a large extent upon how similar - or not - it is to anything which has held a civil CofA or Permit to Fly. For example, there are quite a few Spitfires on the civil register in the UK, so there's a good database of what standards are considered to be acceptable. This may well include mandatory modifications.

On the other hand, let's say that you want to build a replica Westland Welkin, which has never been on the civil register - then you're going to have to prove it's safety to the CAA. They'll accept a fair bit of operating experience in lieu of absolute evidence of compliance with the applicable design codes, but ultimately it'll be in the CAA's gift what they'll accept and you'll almost certainly need a good airworthiness engineer supporting you to get anywhere.

In between is a replica of a "known good" type - CAA may well demand higher standards, because it is a new aeroplane in effect, but if you say want to build a replica Spitfire which is substantially the same as something that already have a PtF, then they're likely to be fairly happy about it. But you can expect at the very least for an approved build standard, and an agreed build plan and inspection regime -just like any other homebuilt.

G

[Rod1]

petestorey

There are replica aircraft which appear to be what you are asking. An example would be the Hawker Cygnet which has been reproduced in modern times. On the military front then it depends how deep your pockets are. In January 2003, the American Me 262 Project, based in Everett, Washington, completed flight testing to allow the delivery of near-exact reproductions of several versions of the Me 262 WWll Jet!

Rod1

[Rob P]

Start with something relatively simple and you should be OK



Rob P

[eltonioni]

Or the Handley Page Hammer?


The one I'd really like to see again, flying or not, is the HP Heyford. There's something about the sheer craziness of the whole thing and maybe being the last heavy bomber made of wood and string and bedsheets there's a possibility?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm having fun, when time permits, with my Hurricane designs, but the other thing I'd enjoy having a go at is replicas of some of the Lympne trials competitors.

Or a Gloster Meteor. As a design that *should* be a really cheap twin engine jet if the right powerplant can be sourced.

G

[Rob P]

A good looker too (Meteor)

Rob P

[phillc]

For the Spitfire there's this:

http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/

From some brief reading I did a while ago, the reason they didn't go with full size replicas was down to production costs.

[Rob P]

Ah... Mrs Grace's favourite.

Fails to provider any answer to the OP question though.

... why can't you simply (ahem) take the original blueprints, and build a new one from them?

Rob P

[rogerb]

Ah... Mrs Grace's favourite.

Fails to provider any answer to the OP question though.

... why can't you simply (ahem) take the original blueprints, and build a new one from them?

Rob P

I am pretty sure that the answer to the OP is you can, with all the plans and legal permissions in place as per original post,
as long as the type was a civil approved type ie by the CAA/ARB/LAA.
The situation with military types is different and each would require agreement of CAA/LAA prior to building.

The build would be through the LAA, if within their remit weight and powerwise and they accept, or the CAA.

I part built a a 1930s type and several others from the early days have been or are under construction.