Thinking about joining - but...

[Neil MacG]

...Statements like this (from the "Why you should join AOPA UK" page http://www.aopa.co.uk/index.php?option= ... Itemid=379 ) really put me off:

"Legal Advice

FREE initial advice on aviation-related legal issues. Each year a growing number of pilots are prosecuted by the CAA. On whom will you rely for help? Email your query to info@aopa.co.uk"

...When they don't seem to be backed up by facts.

I've been to the CAA Prosecutions page here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid ... ageid=6484

And reviewed each of the annual reports. There's some sobering reading in there, but the big frighteners concerning CAA prosecutions and the increasing numbers of prosecutions don't seem to be bourn out by what is published.

Edit: added link to AOPA joining page

By my simple reckoning the number of prosecutions were:

2005-6 29
2006-7 18
2007-8 26
2008-9 29
2009-10 25
2010-11 23

Now I don't know about anyone else's math's but that does not look like an increasing trend. Whilst I'll acknowledge that I haven't broken the analysis down to precisely which of those prosecutions were against pilots as opposed to Operators, Airfield Owners or members of the public a general scan of the documents didn't make me feel there was any sort of general trend to increases in prosecutions against pilots.

One of the reasons pilots in the UK are directed at joining AOPA (based on forum postings here and elsewhere) is the protection offered in the event of prosecution. I understand however that this protection is limited to initial assistance. So I'm questioing a. if the protection is really needed and b. if the limited (initial) assistance would be of that great a value to a pilot. It seems to me that good flight planning as well as open and honest behaviour is a much better tool for avoiding prosecution than membership of AOPA.

Having said that I'm open to honest persuasion of the benefits of joining.

[Mike Cross]

Hi Neil

The figures you are referring to are actual prosecutions. Many investigations take place with a view to possible prosecution but don't make it to court. I was present last year when a CAA Flight Ops Inspector saw two separate incidents which were subsequently investigated in some detail but did not actually result in prosecution. In both cases those being investigated sufferred anxiety and worry. The advice given by AOPA to members who find themselves caught up in these investigations can be of great assistance to the member concerned.

I appreciate your point regarding the reduction in actual prosecutions, which has occurred since the page was written and probably results from a downturn in activity following the 2008 economic crash. I've amended the text so it now reads

FREE initial advice on aviation-related legal issues. Each year a growing number of pilots are investigated by the CAA with a view to prosecution or other enforcement action.

The work of AOPA UK benefits all pilots, as is acknowledged in the September Flyer editorial. There's no compulsion on anyone to join but by joining you are helping to fund the fight to maintain the rights of yourself and every other UK pilot. This work is largely unseen because it's not glamorous or newsworthy. It goes on at meetings in Brussels and Cologne, by e-mail and by conversation and argument. If we didn't fund people to do this work we would end up with whatever the legislators decided to implement. Frankly, if that were the case we'd deserve everything we got.

I'm on the board of AOPA UK. AOPA UK is a not-for-profit and I take no expenses or other remuneration. I do what I do to put something back into an activity that's given me a lot of good times since 1974 and which is sadly much changed since then. At a recent meeting of the Exec Committee I impressed on the other members that we need to do more to provide perceived value to potential members such as yourself. Much of our activity is chronicled in our magazine General Aviation, but that does not reach non-members. Ian Seager recognises the good work we do and assists by providing this Forum and the AOPA page in Flyer but in these straitened financial times we need to raise our game when it comes to marketing and promotion.

It would be invidious for any organisation to attempt to take credit for single-handedly heading off proposals that harm GA, it's a team effort. AOPA UK punches well above its weight and makes a strong contribution.

I'm a member of AOPA UK and also AOPA US because I'm currently spending most of the year in the US and am also a member of LAA because I fly a permit aircraft. We all need to help make our voice heard by supporting at least one of the representative organisations.

[Neil MacG]

Thanks Mike.

It's given me some food for thought, and the change to the wording is appreciated.

Time to think about it a bit more...

Neil

[Keef]

AOPA is one of those organisations that generate anger, for all sorts of reasons. It's run by ordinary human beings, with the odd imperfection, and they can be infuriating at times. AOPA is not good at communication (with itself, or with members and potential members).

However, it's one of the few players in the "protect GA from depredation" game, and it needs all the support it can get. By all means growl at it and encourage it to do better, but do so from inside.

[fuzzy6988]

AOPA is one of those organisations that generate anger, for all sorts of reasons

Can you explain further? Just curious...

[Keef]

If I could explain that, I woudn't be sitting here now...

One example: I volunteered (with others) a couple of times in the past to offer the skills of a team of qualified experts to AOPA. Each time, AOPA said it had a need that the team could have resolved. Each time, it was eventually made clear that AOPA didn't really want any help, thank you all the same. Fair enough: those involved don't volunteer any more.

It's a vital organisation for GA, with all the right motives and purposes, and one we all need to support. Everyone should join.

[Neil MacG]

Well...

I've decided to join and will see how it goes.

I'm still a little bit wary about the tone of some of the sales pitch bit I do recognise that institutions rarely pay much attention to individuals (unless they themselves represent the many or a lot of money). And I have seen some of the benefits of work that AOPA has undertaken on behalf of the community of pilots so I think they are worth a try.

I'll think again when it comes up for renewal. My loyalty (and respect) is earned not freely granted.

Neil

[derekf]

I'd recommend joinging anybody who you may feel helps out in the sort of flying you want to do.

I'm a member of AOPA UK, AOPA US, PPL/IR Europe and a couple of more specific orgnisations such as Twin Cessna Flyer etc...

[Pete S]

...Statements like this (from the "Why you should join AOPA UK" page http://www.aopa.co.uk/index.php?option= ... Itemid=379 ) really put me off:

"Legal Advice

FREE initial advice on aviation-related legal issues. Each year a growing number of pilots are prosecuted by the CAA. On whom will you rely for help? Email your query to info@aopa.co.uk"

...When they don't seem to be backed up by facts.

I joined AOPA in the flush of success when I got my PPL 18 years ago.

Sadly a few years later when I really needed a bit of free (if only initial) legal advice all I got was a brief letter from the chairman telling me of the perils of subrogation and giving me a solicitor's contact details.

The solicitor then charged me..............

[Mike Cross]

Sorry to hear that Pete, and I have no idea whether a similar service was offered at the time.

There are many cases when the correct advice is to see a solicitor. If the thing has progressed to the point that EB are considering prosecution then that will usually be the case. However advice to members is to contact us as soon as they become aware of a potential problem. If they do that then a prosecution can frequently be headed off by the correct presentation of the facts. The correct advice can also prevent inadvertent admissions of guilt. For example the answer of "Yes" to "So you were making a practice approach, is that correct?" could be the thing that lands you in trouble for a breach of Rule 5 while the answer "No" would get you off.

It's always cheaper and less stressful if the case can be argued prior to proceedings commencing rather than in front of the Magistrate, who will have very limited knowledge of aviation law (unless he's Timothy).

[Neil MacG]

The correct advice can also prevent inadvertent admissions of guilt. For example the answer of "Yes" to "So you were making a practice approach, is that correct?" could be the thing that lands you in trouble for a breach of Rule 5 while the answer "No" would get you off.

Mike,

I'm not sure if that is a good way to put this across. If you were making a practice approach but had negelected to realise this breached Rule 5, then you've broken the law (whether or not you intended). I think what you are advocating is that the defendant alters the truth of the matter so as to present the the situation in a different light.

Is this really what AOPA should be saying about the way it handles potential prosecutions?

Neil

[Flyin'Dutch']

Neil

You have just demonstrated why free leal advice can be invaluable.

We are pilots and not legal eagles, when dealing with legal processes itis useful to know how they work and what you are in for.

That has nowt to do with trying to avoid the truth or being dishonest, just making sure you are well prepared and have insight.

Dont know what you do for a living but assume you know more about your fiekd of work than the next person who is not working in that field (like me?)

If I wanted to make some decisions you would expect any serious contender to make some enquiries, would you not?

[jollyrog]

We are pilots and not legal eagles, when dealing with legal processes itis useful to know how they work and what you are in for.

Exactly. If an incident has potentially reached the stage of prosecution, whether you were right or wrong, you still have rights and good advice could ensure them.

You might have an obligation to tell the truth, but you might not be obliged to make someone else's prosecution of you an easy task.

[Neil MacG]

Neil

You have just demonstrated why free leal advice can be invaluable.

We are pilots and not legal eagles, when dealing with legal processes itis useful to know how they work and what you are in for.

That has nowt to do with trying to avoid the truth or being dishonest, just making sure you are well prepared and have insight.

Dont know what you do for a living but assume you know more about your fiekd of work than the next person who is not working in that field (like me?)

If I wanted to make some decisions you would expect any serious contender to make some enquiries, would you not?

Apologies if what I said didn't come across quite as intended. The point I was trying to make was that it didn't seem to be a very wise illustration to use here. It implied on this "open" forum that AOPA representation would be getting you to consider whether you should be telling the truth in answer to the legal questions that might arise in a court case. I suspect that may well happen in practice - but is it a good idea to advertise that this is a way AOPA supports?

Obviously Mike was trying to explain the way in which you may fall into an unwitting question trap and clearly understanding what might happen in your particular circumstances is valuable knowledge. But perhaps using an alternative illustration may have been less amunition to others intent on maligning GA.

Neil

[fuzzy6988]

but is it a good idea to advertise that this is a way AOPA supports?

I think you may have misunderstood. For example, you state:

One of the reasons pilots in the UK are directed at joining AOPA ... is the protection offered in the event of prosecution

As far as I'm aware, nowhere does AOPA offer its members 'protection' or legal representation. What you do get however is initial advice.

They may consequently suggest a list of legal firms that you could choose to represent you. Those firms would be external to AOPA.