Scary but good experience

[KNT754G]

[quote]Perhaps there should be an optional Nav "conversion" course offered for post ppl students? 5 hours or so to offer real world nav procedures and practices - I know I would probably go for that immediately after getting my license.
[/quote]

Like the AOPA Radio Navigation Certificate?

Admittedly the syllabus for that only really covers NDB and VOR, but there is nothing to stop instructor covering DME and GPS as well.

[G-BLEW]

GPS discussions always confuse me. Right now, a proper aviation GPS is the most accurate, reliable navigation tool available to GA pilots. If you have one, use it.

How dumb would we all look if that infringement and collision took place while the pilot had 'accurate to within a few feet' GPS nav on board, but switched off and in the pilot's bag?

If you have a GPS on board then navigating without it is a bit like...

Hand swinging an aeroplane when the starter is working
Flying an NDB approach when there's an ILS
Keeping your transponder on standby when you have mode C or S
Using the compass when there's a DI or HSI
etc.

It's great to have (and maintain) the above skills, but let's stop pretending that GPS is anything other than better and more reliable than any other form of navigation available to the GA pilot.

Ian

[alanevans]

Training has got to be the way forward. There's a whole raft of things that can help avoid infringements now:

Use of the transponder and mode C
Use of the listening squawks
Use of the new LARS services from Farnborough In the south east of the UK
Use the pictures and other help on Fly On Track
Use of GPS
Use of radio nav
Don't be afraid of r/t.
Shout as soon as you might be lost if near CAS.

I wonder to what extent these topics (pre- or post-PPL) are encouraged by the CFIs? I wonder to what extent these topics are covered in the instructor re-validation seminars?

AOPA could put together a neat course in 'modern navigation,' perhaps as part of the Wings scheme. Or the topics could be covered by mentoring from a more experienced pilot.

There is also a case for simplifying charts, so that controlled airspace stands out more clearly -- maybe de-cluttering by reducing the maximum altitude covered?

None of this prohibits going for a bimble in the non-radio/non-electric Cub on a fine summer evening. By and large, I suspect that the folk doing this are not the folk who infringe.

Alan.

[AndyR]

[quote='Bloomer']Could not agree more with G-BLEW. If you have a GPS use it. [/quote]

But don't become so reliant on it that if it does lose it's signal you are then stuck and unsure of your position. Keep DR skills honed at the same time.

[AfricanEagle]

[quote='AndyR'][quote='Bloomer']Could not agree more with G-BLEW. If you have a GPS use it. :)[/quote]

But don't become so reliant on it that if it does lose it's signal you are then stuck and unsure of your position. Keep DR skills honed at the same time.[/quote]

The above sentences wrap up the issue in a nutshell.

[LowNSlow1]

I have watched ATCO's put commercial jets straight over the top of such a non transponding aeroplane as yours in the Luton zone and I found it rather chilling that they had the faith to do so. No wonder they nag at us all to use the transponder with mode C!

AndyR, I was probably one of the non-transponding aeroplanes you mention (no electrics = no transponder). I operate out of Rush Green which is about 0.5 miles to the North of the approach to Luton's 26 and well within their zone. There is a written agreement between the airfield owners and Luton ATC regarding operations in the zone which ensures that nobody goes above 1,000' on the Luton QNH thus providing separation from the approach traffic. It's a system which has worked for 20+ years with no problems for anybody to date. No need to be chilled by it as the non-transponder equipped aircraft based at Rush Green are very much VFR and operate in severe clear conditions only as befits their advanced age!

[alanevans]

LowNSlow1 - I think the thought that chills people is that the non-transponding/non-mode c aircraft deemed to be under the CTA, might actally be 500 feet above the base of the CTA right on the glide slope - not the Rush Green folk who have been operating for years on the letter of agreement, as you say.

Alan.

[David Curley]

Is it me ? but as the use of Mode C or S is not engrained in pilots heads, is this an issue the CAA should be taking up with Instructors ? Surely, the Mode C or S is a common sense safety issue, not, a PPL course issue.
Training in the use of GPS could be offered as a rating rather like a Night rating, that way the CAA may then realise that GPS is not going have loads of pilots blindly following a red line at each other or using the GPS to the exclusion of Map and Plog.
It may be that there are cirtain factions within our little community that would like to keep GPS in the bag on the back seat.
I for one am happy to use anything at all that helps me fly safely, effeciently and legally, but I realise anything that works with a power sourse can go wrong, switch itself off or just be in-accurate, just remember that and do not use one piece of kit to fly with, keep the GPS on, the map on your knee and keep cross checking.
I have An Airbox Foresight GPS which is great, a very cut down version is being offered as a NATS Zone protector, this is the way to go, everyone should have something that lights up the zones as you approach and then you have no real excuse to tread on the zone.

[wotai139]

Those situations are priceless to testing your flying, and your mental/physical capabilities of being a pilot. You handled it quite well.

[neilcharlton]

NeilA - well done for posting this, hope you haven't been bashed too much .
Have you been flying since this incident ? I imagine its difficult getting back on the horse so to speak.

I recently did a flight in clear skys only to find a thick haze once in the air. I struggled to find the m25 and back round to land (elstree). As you indicated your weather wasn't looking too good , and its always BEST to go with your GUT feelings..

Not wanting this to go into a gps / vs non gps debate , flying around the south east of england , panshanger , elstree , denham , north weald etc with a map, a pencil and a stop watch isn't easy and can be stressful. Even a minor mistake can very easily result in a bust. I made far more mistakes a navigating the old way than I do with a GPS.

A printed PLOG and a good GPS etc has to be the best way to fly , so why don't with train new ppl's like that ? You would think the CAA /NATS would be asking for this sort of instruction to help reduce busts.

I was recently told about a international airport zone bust by a 15,000 hr commercial pilot who got his airfields mixed up , so it happens to the best of them !