Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Gas Guzzler
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1420331
AIUI an AME would have to, not so sure about GP
By The_Doc
#1421085
Interesting question and topical conversation.

Essentially it is an ethical dilemma for the poor Doctor concerned. On one hand you have the patient/client's confidentiality and on the other hand the need to protect third parties and the public from unnecessary risks. When this dilemma occurs, it is up to the Doctor concerned to make a decision as to whether the later (the potential for risk to others) is so high as to outweigh the over-riding principle of patient confidentiality.

Speaking with my GP hat on, I can tell you I been in this position a number of times. Generally some serious symptom or condition has been identified (e.g blackouts with no warning, or a recent diagnosis of epilepsy are two examples). My usual policy is to then clearly advise the patient they need to stop driving and ask them to write to and inform the DVLA, copying me in so I can see they have done so and are acting to protect others. If the patient has an "attitude issue" and clearly appears to not want to accept the advice, or if they agree but then don't seem to inform the DVLA as they had agreed to do so, I then have to consider whether to breach confidentiality.

I usually discuss the case (without divulging patient details) with a colleague or my indemnifying organisation, because if I make the wrong decision, the GMC might want to investigate if or when the patient complains to them, and may even strike me off the register for having broken confidentiality. So it is quite a heavy decision to have to make. Once I, and my confidential counsel, agree there is no alternative action that can be taken other than to break the patient's confidentiality, I then write a carefully worded letter stating the facts, with only enough information to make clear what the issues are that appear to prevent the patient being considered safe to drive. I also send a copy of this to the patient with a covering letter explaining I have felt there was no choice but to take this action, and explaining why, with an appropriate apology but pointing out I have a duty to protect innocent third parties.

As an AME, I have only ever had one occasion that someone has failed their medical and the condition / symptoms were such that the patient was advised their HGV (Group 2) medical could be in jeopardy and in my opinion they should stop driving HGV's and inform the DVLA. As most sensible pilots and patients see sense, so did this one, and 3 days later I received a copy of the patient's letter to the DVLA. I was able to facilitate with the patient's consent and wrote their GP a letter to advise them of my concerns, and to try and help pave the way for the necessary tests required medically - from a health perspective.

I hope this provides an insight into the Doctor's position, no matter their job, and the difficulties and dangers involved in such decisions. I certainly know of one GP colleague who was investigated by the GMC following a patient complaint when he wrote to the DVLA with concerns about that patient. He had 4 months of stress, and worry, before he was vindicated of his actions. He told me after that he would never put his career on the line again vowed never to do that again. He has been retired a number of years now.
By ZOGman
#1421138
An enlightening response, thanks Doc.

It would seem then; that a visit to a doctor for a medical, for whatever reason (see examples below), could put your driving licence/mobility and possibly your livelihood at risk, if a fail?

E.g. Medicals are required for: Flying licences, air traffic licences, engineer licences, some employment applications, some work contracts, HGV, PCV, some insurance applications/claims, sick leave application, benefit applications, visiting certain countries etc.

How about the ‘health check’ if you move surgeries?
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By JonathanB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1421140
Surely more of a risk to your livelihood and freedoms if you don't go to the doctors when you have a suspicion that there is something wrong and it is later discovered or becomes a problem? Either that or what would have been a temporary suspension might become permanent through lack of timely attention?

Then again, it seems as the though the Bin-Lorry guy in Glasgow has got away with it from the DVLA's perspective...
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By Gertie
#1421142
ZOGman wrote:It would seem then; that a visit to a doctor for a medical, for whatever reason (see examples below), could put your driving licence/mobility and possibly your livelihood at risk, if a fail?

A more reasonable view might be that it's your medical condition that's putting those things at risk.

Insurance companies offer protection against being unable to work for medical reasons, as does the welfare state.
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By davey
#1421145
OK, so what's your problem Zogman, or don't you want to share it with us....

Maybe you should confide in your gp/ AME.
By ZOGman
#1421153
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the personalised attack :thumright: :

Maybe we can move on?
By The_Doc
#1421259
My impression was that the OP was curious as to what the duties of a Doctor were, hence why my long post. Following the tragedy up north, I thought this was quite topical, and I suspect the OP did too.

Wherever there is a medical or other standard for a job, yes, your livelihood might be on the line. Surely any reasonable person can see though,that where an employment standard is not met for an occupation, and failure of that standard risks the lives of others, it is not in question that individual should not be working that role until we know it is safe for sure?


One thing that amazes me on these forums, is the repeated number of posts over the years regarding loss of medical and how unfair / unjust / unreasonable it is etc. (not an unreasonable reaction - to some it is a "bereavement"). and I do feel sorry for those individuals. I never see posts about health promotion, or how to keep myself healthy, or how to make sure I look after my well-being to keep my medical as long as I can. Why is that? Anyone want to start a post?!

I'm off on my hamster wheel now (treadmill)!!
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By Gertie
#1421260
The_Doc wrote:One thing that amazes me on these forums, is the repeated number of posts over the years regarding loss of medical and how unfair / unjust / unreasonable it is etc.

I don't think I am the only one who has

- been refused a medical on ECG grounds

- gone immediately to the NHS for diagnosis and treatment, to be told that there's nothing wrong with me and can I please stop wasting their time

- nonetheless had to spend lots of money over several years on further tests (all the private doctors also saying there's nothing wrong with me and can I please stop wasting their time) before getting the medical back.

I'm not, of course, claiming that the initial investigations were "unfair / unjust / unreasonable", but nobody managed to explain to me how the subsequent costs and delays were fair, just and reasonable.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1421311
The risk to the public from medical incapacitation is minuscule as demonstrated by the success of the NPPL medical self declaration and actual statistical evidence.
The sooner the requirement for medicals is removed the better.

I don't expect any of the AMEs on here to agree with this.
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By davey
#1421362
flybymike wrote:The risk to the public from medical incapacitation is minuscule as demonstrated by the success of the NPPL medical self declaration and actual statistical evidence.
The sooner the requirement for medicals is removed the better.

I don't expect any of the AMEs on here to agree with this.




I must admit I totally agree with you, but there do seem to be one or two on here that may have a problem but don't seem to want to seek help. I can only presume they are worried about not being allowed to fly again.
By Balliol
#1421367
When I get stressed about medical time (which I think is a fairly normal reaction?!) I try and remember the several people I know well who possibly wouldn't be here if they didn't have flying medicals (two triple bypass, one double bypass, one multiple stents) that picked up serious stuff. Interesting it often seems heart related, perhaps other stuff show symptoms earlier?
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By Kittyhawk
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1421370
Then again,

I had a heart attack a month after I had passed my Class 2 medical, including a resting ECG, so they don't pick up everything..
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1421465
davey wrote:

I must admit I totally agree with you, but there do seem to be one or two on here that may have a problem but don't seem to want to seek help. I can only presume they are worried about not being allowed to fly again.

Indeed, I'm certain there are such folk, and If they weren't actually required to have a medical in the first place, they would be far less apprehensive about visiting their GP.