Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By seanjd
#1392142
Many thanks ecosse 8)
Sods law that I am in Devon until early next week :(
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By seanjd
#1392192
Julius Seizure wrote:Something like this? http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=32442&imid=0

JS.


That does appear to be a bargain. Quick bit of research shows up the early flaperon Kitfoxes had quirky handling issues. Rotax 582 silver top concerns me a bit, but not too much. 211 hrs eng & airframe, so engine getting close to TBO, but the mk3 could also have a 912 fitted, so this may be an option.
Ticks the boxes otherwise, so potentially worth a closer look, as it might make a good first aircraft purchase. Would have to factor in tailwheel conversion also.
I am in Devon presently, so may pop down the road for a look.
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By ecosse
#1392292
seanjd wrote:
Julius Seizure wrote:Something like this? http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=32442&imid=0

JS.


That does appear to be a bargain. Quick bit of research shows up the early flaperon Kitfoxes had quirky handling issues. Rotax 582 silver top concerns me a bit, but not too much. 211 hrs eng & airframe, so engine getting close to TBO, but the mk3 could also have a 912 fitted, so this may be an option.
Ticks the boxes otherwise, so potentially worth a closer look, as it might make a good first aircraft purchase. Would have to factor in tailwheel conversion also.
I am in Devon presently, so may pop down the road for a look.


Its a nice looking a/c :thumright: a friend has had many kit foxes and the mk4 is certainly more desirable but he has had a mk3 with a 912 and went all over in it and was a great machine by all accounts.

The people who have nothing nice to say about kit foxes etc are usually people who have never sat in one. I would buy one but only with a 912 as once you've had it you cant go back and it helps at max weight :thumleft:

Get down and have a seat in it :thumright: I know someone who knows the owner of this actual plane and its supposed to be a nice one, I considered it myself before the escapade came up. The tailwheel conversion is an issue if your heavy as trying to find an instructor who can fit in with you with some fuel was certainly my problem when i had my avid (basically a mk3 kit fox).

As my escapade is a micro there is no tail wheel differences training required though a few hours with someone experienced sat beside me made a difference and depending where your flying with x/winds etc the tailwheel is easily enough tamed. Dont let them kid you that its a mystical black art... its not hard at all.. (not had serious x/wind's but we have short runways at strathaven and they are easy with a kit fox/avid/escapade hence the question of where).

Cheers Kenny.
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By Private Jet
#1392554
I bought a MK3 Kitfox last year and I don't regret it at all, so you could do a lot worse. I'm a low hours pilot and had only 5 hours of tailwheel time when I got it, but despite it's reputation, I'm enjoying flying it.

It has some quirks, and in inexperienced hands this initially led to them having a high accident rate, but if you buy it with an expectation that you will have a learning curve, then you will enjoy your own progression along that curve. A local Kitfox pilot (a bit of an expert with over 600 hours on the type) suggested that I fly with another, experienced local tail wheel pilot for the first ten hours or so, and with some occasional advice from the left hand seat, you do get to the point where you are comfortable with them. If you are close to the aircraft for sale, why not ask if the seller would accompany you (after the money has changed hands) in the right hand seat for a few hours, or better still get an LAA coach to assist?

In flight they are very docile. Stalls are non-events with no real wing drop, with more of a mush at 35mph. The big wings mean that you do feel the bumps, and you soon get the point where you just look out the window and continuously put in minute, but constant control inputs. However, you can't take your hands off everything, and start playing with your iPad and expect it to keep flying straight and level, but then you shouldn't do that anyway should you?

The big wings mean that they can be floaty on landing, but you get past that quickly and I now get a sense of accomplishment on every landing, but you don't stop flying it until you are at full stop with the engine off. They require attention to the rudder pedals up until the aircraft is no longer moving.

The flapperons are part of the cause for their reputation. With the flaps down, you lose roll control so if you have flaps down, and it's gusty and you have a crosswind you have less "aileron" authority. The answer is to not use the flaps and some owners cable tie the flap lever in the flaps up position. The other quirk is that you can't just stick on rudder and forget about it, as it causes too much adverse yaw, but you soon develop a feel. One of the reasons for the suggestion of having a coach or initial mentor is to have someone to encourage you not to make that last turn to final as a skidding, dramatically out of balance turn. After about 3-4 hours of circuit bashing with a bit of gentle reminding that comes good too.

This post has got a wee bit long, so I will do a second post with costs in a bit.
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By Private Jet
#1392558
My MK3 Kitfox costs have been:

Hangarage - a lot, because my Kitfox lives in the lap of luxury, but the last owner paid €50 a month for it to be kept in a byre with it's wings folded!
Fuel - I plan for 15 litres an hour at 70mph but I get nearer to 13lph and buy my fuel from the local ESSO garage at £1.26 a litre. £15 an hour for fuel
2-Stroke Oil - I use Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T which is £13.49 a litre from Halfords. At 50:1 that is £4.04 an hour, but you can get it cheaper mail order.
Spark plugs should be changed every 25 hours and there are four of them, costing £4.99 each from Halfords = 80p an hour

So petrol and oil, plus plugs costs £20 an hour, worst case at current costs. Those are your direct per hour costs.

My annual, plus some additional repair work on the fabric, de-laminated wing tip, fabricating a new oil reservoir, blasting the spinner cost £270, all carried out by my inspector as I didn't know how.

Insurance for a low hours pilot, with hull insurance for £12,500 and two additional named higher hours pilots as mentors costs me roughly £580 a year. Visicover, and I can't recommend them enough, but your quote may vary.

I've just had the full 582, 300hr rebuild and gearbox service, and elected for the 300hr kit, which includes all new leads, pistons and a brand new, later series crankshaft, which cost about £900 for the kit. My local Rotax engineer did the full service and rebuild for £1600 including parts, but you should budget up to £2500. Most owners don't go the whole way on the rebuild at 300hrs, but I'm a big scaredy so I did. I mentally allocate £10 an hour towards the next engine rebuild as every hour on the engine is a tenner off the resale value.

Other parts I've had to buy this year include a brake cylinder rebuild kit, £25. A belt sanded quad tyre at £160 (yes, I know, but I was in a hurry). New Lexan for the doors due to fuel damage, £80 and new bungees for the suspension at £155.

I've budgeted £1000 for a new radio with 8.33khz spacing as I will need that for next years annual. I'm debating a transponder too.

The big shock "cost" has been my time. I have a knowledgeable hangar mate with a full complement of tools who helps, but I've got no mechanical background or experience so I've had a steep learning curve, but would have had this with any PtF aircraft. I've spent nearly 80 hours in the last year working on the aircraft, for 32 hours of actual flying. I've enjoyed it, but it's only recently that my working pattern has allowed this. If you are a time constrained "road warrior" who wants to fly on the weekends then permit aircraft aren't for you. I can cycle to the hangar in 15 minutes and that proximity has helped immensely. I can easily do an hour or two after work.

Hope this helps someone who is considering the Kitfox. They are a cheap aircraft to buy and run, but like most permit aircraft require time to learn how to fly properly and to maintain.
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By seanjd
#1392581
Many thanks for the informed & detailed information 'privatejet' :)
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By Private Jet
#1392618
Sean, a couple of points on the 582 silver top. I wasn't keen on running one as I had heard all of the horror stories. My Kitfox had taken 13 years to build, so although it had first been registered in 1990 it didn't fly until 2003. This turns out to be a lot more common than you would think. Anyway, as a condition of being flown for the first time, the Rotax 582 '90 was stripped down, all seals replaced and it was fitted with a hydro damper and a couple of other mods that the '99 (blue top) has.

It now has the '99 crankshaft so apart from the bypass thermostat and the ceramic seal on the water pump, it is now basically a blue top. Some owners actually paint the head at this point in their engine's life, but I'm not for that.

So if the installation of a silver top is worrying you, have a discussion with the owner about the engine history. He may not know it completely as he's far from being the original owner, but it will be in the aircraft paperwork. At some stage you really want to see some evidence of seal replacement, the fitting of a hydro damper etc.

At the risk of getting lynched by angry owners I would value a 582'90 engined MK3 with a newly rebuilt engine at around £11,500 to £12,500 depending on kit and general condition. Knock £10 an hour for every hour the engine has done and that should be your guide of worth. When you get North of 250-260 hours the dreaded engine rebuild really starts to scare prospective buyers, so you would probably have to discount by a further £1000.

I bought mine at 273 hours for just over £8500 as the owner wanted a quick sell so had priced accordingly. If I was selling tomorrow, but wasn't in a rush I would ask £12.5k and go as low as £11.5k. Saying that, my paintwork was tatty, but it isn't now. Some buyers are obsessed with paint quality, despite it being a cheap fix.
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By garethep
#1392746
Can't comment on the flying qualities of the kitfox as I've only managed 3 mins airborne time in kine so far! My co owner was worried about the 582 so we bought a 4 stroke kfm powered version......its a lovely engine BUT..noone knows.about it and spares are.hard to come by. Had we had.a 582 fitted then the knowledge out there would have been much higher and we could have gotten airborne again much quicker.
There is a.lot of info out there on the 582....don't dismiss it out of hand.

As for the permit aircraft maintenance thing.......I am enjoying getting to know the aeroplane and it's a great feeling to own a.part of it but, even.as a trained engineer, it has been a steep learning curve. Go into it with your eyes open and I'm sure you will enjoy it but do spend so.e time around permit aircraft owners.and see if it's your "thing"
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By seanjd
#1392772
Thanks Gareth :)
The permit way of life appeals tbh. Aircraft will be in hangar 5 minute walk from my home, and as previously stated, I am an ex RAF airframe technician, so am looking forward to 'tinkering' to get to know my aircraft and keep it in good order.
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By Private Jet
#1392779
Do you get a SEP X-Air or are they all classed as Microlights? I wanted to keep my existing licence so Group A was essential.

Bear in mind there are wing folds and there are wing folds and I think the Kitfox is often oversold as a single man fold in five minutes. I know the last owner did, but I would be reluctant to fold the wings on my aircraft without someone on the wingtip. Also, on the MK3 Kitfox, if your tanks are more than half full, petrol will come out of the vents when you fold them and ruin the paint. You can put some rubber tube with a knot in to prevent that, but it would be a bad day if you ever forgot to take that off before flight.
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By seanjd
#1392786
X-Air's are microlight class.
Ditto with licence and Group A