Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Resonate
#1387086
I'm giving it such attention as we have a precious cargo, our 16 week old daughter! And all her associated gear. Surprisingly the W&B checks out OK.

We got full fuel 291lbs

Row 1 350 lbs 2 x people
Row 2 80lbs including baby and some baggage
Bagagge area at the back 45 lbs, push chair and travel cot

All that = 2228 vs a MAUW of 2325 and the lines are in the envelope :)
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By Flying_john
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387091
Why is the arm so long on the PA28 ?

Is there some reference point that is used that is way forward of the CofG.

The max lever arm for an item of baggage in the Horizon at the further most point of the baggage compartment is only 1.55metres.

Even with 80kg of personages on all 4 seats, full fuel (180l) and 10kg of baggage its still within the W&B envelope.

John
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387094
You have to be careful with some pa28s not being "underweight" (so to speak... Meaning not enough weight in the back). Most people get mental alarm bells when they suspect they are overweight with people in the back, but few do so if there is only one or two up front. If you are having flat landings and/or nose wheel oleo seal problems, have a look at whether you have enough weight in the back.
I found a syndicate having such oleo problems regularly, and their W&B had 50 pounds in the back. Unfortunately there was no such weight in the back. The pilot actually said to me "we have to put that figure in the calculations or the calculations don't come out right".
I ought to write a book, working title "Flying on My Planet"
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387107
Resonate wrote:I'm giving it such attention as we have a precious cargo, our 16 week old daughter! And all her associated gear. Surprisingly the W&B checks out OK.

We got full fuel 291lbs

Row 1 350 lbs 2 x people
Row 2 80lbs including baby and some baggage
Bagagge area at the back 45 lbs, push chair and travel cot

All that = 2228 vs a MAUW of 2325 and the lines are in the envelope :)


I dont want to tell you your business, but if its just you & partner + baby, you might want to think about whether your other half can reach the baby from the front and perform "required tasks" without interfering with controls/you. It might be worth running w&b with partner & baby in the back & "baby stuff" on the seat next to you which is perhaps easier to reach from the back. When I was married (and allowed to fly the kids because it was convenient) the kids used to fall asleep anyway, but if you have any kind of baby problem, its worth thinking about how you both deal with it before you get in the air.

Enjoy flying with your kids, its a great thing to be able to do.

Regards, SD..
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By Ian Melville
#1387111
Flying_john wrote:Why is the arm so long on the PA28 ?

Is there some reference point that is used that is way forward of the CofG.

The max lever arm for an item of baggage in the Horizon at the further most point of the baggage compartment is only 1.55metres.

Even with 80kg of personages on all 4 seats, full fuel (180l) and 10kg of baggage its still within the W&B envelope.

John


The point (datum point) from which the arm is mearsured is not relevant, but must be used consistently throughout ALL weight and balance calculations. The location is set by the aircraft designer and is more often than not a location from which it is easy to take measurements. Firewall, wing leading edge, and main spar are common. The POH should indicate where that datum point is, and this should be backed up by the last W&B check.
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By Rob P
#1387136
skydriller wrote:...partner & baby in the back & "baby stuff" on the seat next to you


Could make getting out in a hurry a little problematical though?

Rob P
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387142
Irv Lee wrote:and their W&B had 50 pounds in the back


In the Arrow I used to fly in Sweden, we kept a 25kg bag of chippings in the baggage compartment, only to be removed if the back seat was occupied.

I'd still reach full back travel on the elevator while landing. Only ever flew it one up - but with my weight that's the equivalent of two normal people in the front.
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By Gertie
#1387144
Instructor once asked me to do a W&B for a 152.

The answer came out (very slightly) too far forward.

"Can we fly?" he asked.

"Yes," I said (after thinking for a bit). Because I'd used the default position for the seats, and we were both fairly tall, so once I'd re-done the sums with the seats a bit further back it worked OK.

(He had, on purpose, picked the aircraft in the fleet that was most prone to ending up too far forward, to see whether I worked out the answer for myself.)
By Balliol
#1387145
Datum line on a PA28 is the front tip of the spinner, leading edge is 78" back from datum and c of g usually up to 10" back from that
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387171
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:and their W&B had 50 pounds in the back


In the Arrow I used to fly in Sweden, we kept a 25kg bag of chippings in the baggage compartment, only to be removed if the back seat was occupied.

I am surprised it wasn't popcorn, so the weight could be easily moved to the front seats....
(We use water in a big container, but we don't drink it)
By JoeC
#1387175
Gertie wrote:Instructor once asked me to do a W&B for a 152.

The answer came out (very slightly) too far forward.

"Can we fly?" he asked.

"Yes," I said (after thinking for a bit). Because I'd used the default position for the seats, and we were both fairly tall, so once I'd re-done the sums with the seats a bit further back it worked OK.

(He had, on purpose, picked the aircraft in the fleet that was most prone to ending up too far forward, to see whether I worked out the answer for myself.)


I'd be pleasantly surprised if many 150/152s in the training fleet were in limit!
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387250
Rob P wrote:
skydriller wrote:...partner & baby in the back & "baby stuff" on the seat next to you


Could make getting out in a hurry a little problematical though?

Rob P

... :scratch: .....took me a while to understand that comment, rob...
ahh yes...PA28s have only one door don't they (who designed that and thought it was a good idea!?!?).....and its the wrong side to boot isn't it... :roll:

hey...I can't be expected to think of everything you know :oops:

But you know what, I'll leave my comment because it is worth thinking about in other aeroplanes when flying with a baby.

regards SD..
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By Sir Morley Steven
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387256
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:and their W&B had 50 pounds in the back


In the Arrow I used to fly in Sweden, we kept a 25kg bag of chippings in the baggage compartment, only to be removed if the back seat was occupied.

I'd still reach full back travel on the elevator while landing. Only ever flew it one up - but with my weight that's the equivalent of two normal people in the front.

Ours was a spare battery! Which is ironic as I understand that it is the placement of the ( operational) battery wot causes it.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1387258
Sir Morley Steven wrote:Ours was a spare battery! Which is ironic as I understand that it is the placement of the ( operational) battery wot causes it.


Yes, as my research assumes, the "winterisation kit" moves the battery to the firewall rather then down the back. I assume the one in Sweden had been "winterised" but not certain.
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By Rob P
#1387284
Rob P wrote:
Could make getting out in a hurry a little problematical though?



skydriller wrote:
But you know what, I'll leave my comment because it is worth thinking about in other aeroplanes when flying with a baby.



That was sort of the reason I ended with a '?'

I'm guessing that in terms of all possible incidents the balance of probabilities still favours your solution, even in a Cherokee.


Rob P