Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377081
We are actually talking about circuit training here, right? ie the aerodrome limiting the number of aeroplanes circuit bashing at one time, right? Correct me if Im wrong, but at an AFIS aerodrome the only control is on the ground, so it would be enforcable for locally departing traffic that way, but I would love to find out how they would prevent an aeroplane from joining the circuit to land or pitching up from somewhere else to do a couple of circuits. If you ask me, limiting the number of aeroplanes circuit bashing isnt a bad idea, keeps the circuits smaller for everyone and reduces the noise footprint for the neighbours.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377086
Pete L wrote:
riverrock wrote:a 757 actually going bomber circuits

Ryanair testing rapid deplaning?

Lol - my memory is that it was actually Thompson doing visual circuits - Prestwick is used by a number of airlines for training purposes. Long runway and quiet airspace makes mistakes easier to deal with.
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By seanjd
#1377098
Blackpool has a limit of 4 movements in a 15 minute period :|
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By Talkdownman
#1377111
skydriller wrote:Correct me if Im wrong, but at an AFIS aerodrome the only control is on the ground

From CAP797:
In granting or refusing permission under Rules 40 and 41 of the Rules of the Air, AFISOs are permitted to pass instructions...

'Permission to pass instructions' is a far cry from published air traffic ground control (ATC GMC) which requires an ATC licence with an aerodrome control rating.
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By Sir Morley Steven
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377122
skydriller wrote:We are actually talking about circuit training here, right? ie the aerodrome limiting the number of aeroplanes circuit bashing at one time, right? Correct me if Im wrong, but at an AFIS aerodrome the only control is on the ground, so it would be enforcable for locally departing traffic that way, but I would love to find out how they would prevent an aeroplane from joining the circuit to land or pitching up from somewhere else to do a couple of circuits. If you ask me, limiting the number of aeroplanes circuit bashing isnt a bad idea, keeps the circuits smaller for everyone and reduces the noise footprint for the neighbours.

The limit for circuits has been four for some time. It makes it expensive for my students who have to pay to fly elsewhere to learn how to share a circuit with more aircraft.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377133
TDM, What is the point you are making because Im a simple chap - am I right or wrong? :? I said "..at an AFIS aerodrome the only control is on the ground.."

Because according to the CAP797 (which I googled thanks to you telling me its title, thanks, 'cause I wouldnt know where to look this stuff up anymore), it says in full:
In granting or refusing permission under Rules 40 and 41 of the Rules of the Air, AFISOs are permitted to pass instructions to vehicles and personnel operating on the manoeuvring area, as well as:
a) departing aircraft about to move or moving on the apron and manoeuvring area up to and including the holding point of the runway to be used for departure;
b) departing aircraft required to utilise the runway for the purposes of taxiing, who will not subsequently vacate the runway prior to departure
c) arriving aircraft moving on the manoeuvring area and apron, following the completion of the landing roll;
d) all other taxiing aircraft intending to move or moving on the apron and manoeuvring area, including the crossing of runways;
e) to helicopters engaged in air taxiing for departure, up to and including the holding point of the runway to be used for departure or up to and including such other location on the aerodrome from which the helicopter will depart; and
f) to helicopters engaging in air taxiing on completion of landing or that have reached the hover prior to air taxiing.
Elsewhere on the ground and at all times in the air, information shall be passed.

So if I understand the above, an AFIS passes instructions/controls you regarding what you do on the ground, but not in the air....is that right? Its my decision to do what I choose once in the air on when approaching the aerodrome until Im on the ground? I have the impression you are a ATC bod of some standing, so Im not picking a fight, I just want to know if what Ive generally understood since I started flying in 1989 is correct in that A/G pretty much needent be there, they can only give you info. AFIS tells you what to do on the ground only, its up to you what you do in the air. Full ATC tell you what to do both in the air and on the ground and actually clears you to do stuff....
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By ianfallon
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377142
Pete L wrote:
ianfallon wrote:With some of the bomber command circuits you get, probably 100 ! :twisted:


I think you have cause and effect the wrong way round. If you have too many a/c in, that is what generates the bomber command circuit


Perhaps sometimes but usually noise related or pilot choice I think
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By Talkdownman
#1377150
skydriller wrote:TDM, What is the point you are making because Im a simple chap - am I right or wrong? :? I said "..at an AFIS aerodrome the only control is on the ground.."

skydriller wrote:So if I understand the above, an AFIS passes instructions/controls you regarding what you do on the ground, but not in the air....is that right? Its my decision to do what I choose once in the air on when approaching the aerodrome until Im on the ground? I have the impression you are a ATC bod of some standing, so Im not picking a fight, I just want to know if what Ive generally understood since I started flying in 1989 is correct in that A/G pretty much needent be there, they can only give you info. AFIS tells you what to do on the ground only, its up to you what you do in the air. Full ATC tell you what to do both in the air and on the ground and actually clears you to do stuff....

SD, I, too, am a simple chap, otherwise I wouldn't be an ATCO! Your interpretation is pretty much correct.
The point I am simply making is that the air traffic service provided on the ground by AFIS is NOT air traffic control. Only ATC as Aerodrome Control (or Ground Movement Control at busier aerodromes) may control aircraft on the ground. An AFISO simply has authority to pass instructions on behalf of the person in charge of the aerodrome for the purposes of Rules 40 and 41. A world of difference. I simply wished to highlight that difference.
By Johnyev
#1377267
Mr OP
Did you miss off the word officer/controller from your question?
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377311
@TDM,

OK, Geddit... Thanks for expanding, to yourself and other ATCOs I can see its obviously a big difference regarding training, rules and the like. But Im afraid to the simple pilot like myself - its "ATC on the ground"... :mrgreen:

Regards, SD..
By Bartonflyer
#1377400
I recall flying into the PFA rally at Wroughton (many years ago) and being told as I made my "left base" or somesuch call, "caution the balbo of motor gliders on long final" - it looked like a swarm of angry bees bearing down upon the field!
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By jollyrog
#1377409
I can't see that on the ground, with little light aircraft, it's any more difficult or skilled than directing cars around a car park. We can all see where we're going too, so happy to follow the instructions and not really that bothered as to the qualification of the person issuing them. I work on the principle that the voice on the radio generally has good intentions, a better overall picture than me and probably a better view too.

In this respect, I don't see a lot of difference between FISOs and A/G.
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By Chilli Monster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1377416
jollyrog wrote:I work on the principle that the voice on the radio generally has good intentions, a better overall picture than me and probably a better view too.

In this respect, I don't see a lot of difference between FISOs and A/G.


FISO's have to be able to see the manoeuvring area, A/G operators don't
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By Rob P
#1377420
It helps if pilots can too

Rob P
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By Talkdownman
#1377482
Chilli Monster wrote:
jollyrog wrote:In this respect, I don't see a lot of difference between FISOs and A/G.

FISO's have to be able to see the manoeuvring area, A/G operators don't

…because AFIS is intended solely for those public transport ops which do not require ATC…
No public transport - nobody needs to look...