[A le Ron]

Sorry, I'm a little daft - if you go east you fly IFR at any odd altitude up to TA. No matter if it's CAS or OCAS. If you go west it's even numbers. What's the problem?

If anyone needs to go IFR below 3000ft OCAS and can choose whatever altitude they want, well, then that's no difference than it's always been in the UK with the "big sky" theory. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but each to their own. If you're in the soup at 2000ft, I'd rather climb and be under radar control.

Climbing and getting a radar service may or may not be possible, depending on the airspace structure and icing risk. Chances are, not possible when constrained by the TMA.

[dublinpilot]

To be clear, below 3000ft AGL, the semi-circular rule doesn't apply, and you're free to pick your own level.

I knew that was the case in the UK. Is it also true in the rest of Europe? I couldn't find a reference to it elsewhere.

Yes, it's the same in the rest of Europe. The document that I quoted from is the Standardised European Rules of the Air; not a British exemption.

It's basically the same as the ICAO standard, and what everywhere else apart from the UK has been using for many years. Of course all British pilots were already complying with this when they flew outside the UK, weren't they!??

[Radar123]

To be clear, below 3000ft AGL, the semi-circular rule doesn't apply, and you're free to pick your own level.

SERA 5005 (g)

(g) Except where otherwise indicated in air traffic control clearances or specified by the competent authority, VFR flights in level cruising flight when operated above 900 m (3 000 ft) from the ground or water, or a higher datum as specified by the competent authority, shall be conducted at a cruising level appropriate to the track as specified in the table of cruising levels in Appendix 3.

Yes, true for VFR, so there is no problem with that. But for IFR the semi-circular levels do apply below 3000', and the point being made earlier in the thread is that it now may not be possible to fly IFR below TMA/freezing level or whatever and above MSA because of this rule change.

[QSD]

This means that under IFR it is now illegal to cruise Easterly below the 2,500 ft London TMA. The only legal altitude cruising Westerly would be 2,000 ft, a very unhealthy altitude to be at.

[Keef]

... which brings us back to that well-known scenario: VFR in IMC.

[skydriller]

I dont have an IR, so perhaps Im missing something, but I thought that with an IR, you are entitled to enter airways/Class A (like the london TMA), so why would you need to fly below the London TMA when you are allowed in it? And anyway I was under the (perhaps wrong?) belief that flying IFR is actually "a way of flying using airway waypoints/routings etc" so that airspace classification (and the need to avoid it) just goes away, its not actually flying in IMC all the time??

....And anyway this just means the UK is finally the same as the rest of the world, isnt that a good thing?

Regards, SD..

[Keef]

Yes, SD, with an IR you are.

However, with an IMCR/IR(R) you aren't allowed in Class A, which means the LTMA is "off limits". When Class A disappears in the UK, normality may return.

Outside the UK, the weather is different and the need for an IMCR is less pressing (on the whole). Which is why the rest of Europe didn't want the IR(R).

EDIT: flying IFR isn't about waypoints (useful though they are - I use 'em even in VMC). It's about flying in IMC. I've traversed large chunks of the UK in IMC without tracking to a waypoint until I needed to get back down again.

[skydriller]

Ahhh.....geddit..... IFR/Airspace/IMCR issue (which I cant use here anyway unfortunately )

[bookworm]

However, with an IMCR/IR(R) you aren't allowed in Class A, which means the LTMA is "off limits". When Class A disappears in the UK, normality may return.

It's not just about licence privileges and ratings. The lower levels of the London TMA are just not set up to accommodate pop-up IFR or transits at sensible levels. Thus even with an IR, if you want to make a 30 mile hop within the lateral bounds of the TMA, the only practical way of doing it is beneath the TMA, and if it's IMC then you need to do it under IFR.

[fattony]

The document that I quoted from is the Standardised European Rules of the Air; not a British exemption.

Oh I see. Thanks for that - it's good to know.

Of course all British pilots were already complying with this when they flew outside the UK, weren't they!??

Umm...yeah. Of course. Always

[Talkdownman]

Can't imagine that there will be many jobsworth LARS operatives who wouldn't condone the widespread 'custom and practice' 'alley-bashing IFR at two point four'. It's really the only way beneath the LTMA. Loads of corporate have to do it. EASA will just have to take a running jump that their SERA isn't compatible with UK needs. Flight beneath the LTMA can't suddenly become 'VFR-only' just to suit EASA (especially on a typical British day like today…). If 'the Rules' really is a problem then someone in authority should be sorting this nonsense out. It's not gonna stop me carrying on as usual 'two point four' through the 'Mig Alley rat-run' whatever the met conditions.

[bookworm]

EASA will just have to take a running jump that their SERA isn't compatible with UK needs.

The problem is not with SERA but with the UK wording of its permission/exemption. Give it a little while to sort itself out.

[Talkdownman]

Give it a little while to sort itself out

Another four-letter acronym: UKIP.

[PaulB]

If I set off in a generally easterly direction, what level to I need to fly at above 3000'? Does this alter depending on whether I declare myself to be IFR or VFR ...?

Odd thousands if IFR, Odd thousands + 500 ft if VFR,

I'm being told in another place that the +500 doesn't apply to SERA. Earlier in the thread SERA.5005(g) was cited which cites that the levels are specified in Appendix 3. I've just spent 10 fruitless minutes googling to try to find that but failed. Does anyone have a URL to both SERA.5005(g) and the associated appendix as now I'm thoroughly confused!

[low&slow]

Here you are.

Appendix 3 on p79.

Edit: that's the CAA amended version for the UK. The official EASA version is here, appendix 3 on p59.