[foxmoth]

in the light of todays incident, could i respectfully suggest that this thread is left alone at least for a few days.

Whilst I understand the sentiment we do not stop posting about other types of GA flying when there is a light aircraft accident, this thread is not related to the incident and IMHO is irrelevant to it!

[foxmoth]

Loops are done at 24"/24, the roll off the top uses 25/25

I can understand a little more power for RotT but surprised you are increasing the revs as well as manifold, generally I would set RPM for max needed then leave it, certainly the Bulldog is OK with higher than square.

[gfry]

gfry - no offence taken!

Ultimate High is about to enter its 15th year of operation and we pride ourselves on providing the very highest possible standard of advanced flight training. All flights include ground delivered technical briefs, pre-flight briefs and very detailed post-flight debriefs, culminating in a written write-up. This all maximises the value of the on-aircraft training.

We are absolutely passionate in what we do and have a pretty good idea what we are doing. Taking today as a typical example, we had three students undergoing AOPA aerobatic training on the T67M260 and Bulldog which was being delivered by one instructor with a Red Arrow Synchro lead and Team Toyota aerobatic display background, whilst the other has 35 years of aerobatic experience and holds a current Unlimited public Display Authority.

We have operated two Extra 300 aircraft for 14 years and have a good understanding of what these aircraft truly cost to run. Whilst being completely unapologetic about our rates, I think people would be surprised as to how small the operating margin actually is on low volume flight training.

We welcome all enthusiastic and motivated pilots who would like to learn in a professional and fun environment and, on today especially, wish everybody blue skies.

Thanks for the response. I am fairly happy with all the sums everyone has thrown out here. I guess I had my "it cant cost that much more than a cherokee6" hat on.......blinkered view I guess.

By the way you guys do a lot of your stuff right over my farm which is right on the end of the westerly runaway of Charlton Park......very distracting I must say

[MichaelP]

I can understand a little more power for RotT but surprised you are increasing the revs as well as manifold, generally I would set RPM for max needed then leave it, certainly the Bulldog is OK with higher than square.

To be honest that's exactly what I do... I leave it at 2,400 RPM, but when I am faced with the 25/25 crowd that's my response to them.
In basic aerobatic training that is the only time I would possibly use such of a power setting. 25" and even 26" 2400 RPM is perfectly fine in a Super Decathlon.

I am a non believer in the simplistic 'square rule' which has nothing to do with published power settings by engine manufacturers.

My point is that you use as much power as is necessary for the manoeuvre and only that much.
In this way you learn to fly the aeroplane well, and with maximum economy.

Barry Smith would be the aerobatic economist's hero. He won competitions using Volkswagen engines...
There are aerobatic pilots who fly well, and there are aerobatic pilots who need mega horsepower to cover their inability
If however you can fly an aeroplane well, you are much more able to exploit the 'extra' power available in more powerful aerobatic aeroplanes.

I had one chap come back from an aerobatic camp to say that you should use 5.5g to do a roll off the top, (they incorrectly call this an Immelman though I wouldn't attempt it in an Eindekker with wing warping).
This was for 'Sportsman' aerobatics

You need a lot more power to haul 5.5g, but a lot less power to fly the manoeuvre well.

[gfry]

What about this for learning in?

http://www.justplanetrading.com/planes/beagle-aircraft-ltd/b121-series-1-pup/g-azcp



Seems a bargain to me at ~£13.5k

[rogerb]

If only it could be on a permit.

[Lowtimer]

The Pup is a delightful thing for general flying but I consider it to have two significant weaknesses as a device for learning aerobatics. One is that it has low G limits. Second, and perhaps more importantly, you can't see through the roof (unlike a Bulldog which has a big bubble canopy). And that's somewhere you need to look a lot in aerobatics, both for orientation and to ensure lookout into the air into which you are about to move when pulling hard.

[Ridders]

I wouldn't suggest you learn in a pup, in addition to above the w&B limits with much fuel may exclude you many instructors who ate all the pies.
And that is a Pup 100, not the 150. If you do look at it, you will need the spinning tail weight. And the panel on that will need the turn cordinator replacing with the original turn indicator that should be where the clock now is.

[MichaelP]

Does the Pup 100 need the spinning weight?
I would have thought the lighter engine would correct the need for this.

'Was up in the Extra 300L yesterday, and didn't do any aerobatics
It was Christian's bi-annual flight and so what do I do? I put him under the hood and we did instrument flying, it was very interesting.
After the regular stuff we did some unusual attitudes, and spinning, recovering on the turn coordinator.

He was delighted as he has some cross country flying to do.

[Ridders]

Good question, I'm pretty sure the 100 checklist I have at home mentions it but can't check right now, you may well be right there Michael.

[foxmoth]

Even the Pup 100 is better than a Cessna, the Pup150 is fine for teaching the basics,almost as good as a Chippie, yes the lack of bubble canopy is a disadvantage, but there are worse aircraft for vis than that and at least it has nice handling!

[joe-fbs]

Never mind aerobatics, I fancy it anyway, a British aeroplane that a modestly houred, modestly talented pilot like me could fly and it's for sale at an affordable price.

Or it it likely to be a terrible old shed that I cannot afford to maintain?

G-INFO says it is on restricted CofA so I need to find whether it is allowed to fly in IMC.

[MichaelP]

Suddenly an aeroplane that has trained many, including IMC, becomes uncertified as an orphan... Is that the reason?

You could get an Extra 300L for IMC training: