Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By 421C
#1326402
G-BLEW wrote:I don't think it's just a UK thing, I have rented from quite a few places in the US and some make it very difficult to give them money too.
Ian

I agree Ian, the US experience I've had is mixed and the US industry also has it worries about attracting people to GA, but they start from a very different point. You can fly a G1000 C172 for, say, £100/hr and fly all year to great hard-runway IFR airports near your destination and pay little more than the odd modest ramp fee. GA has less need to sell itself on the customer experience, because the fundamentals are so much more positive. Your "hassle/misery" per £1000 spent involves never hearing the words "PPR", never wearing a HiVis jacket, paying the same low amount for Avgas as people pay for Jet fuel instead of 3x as much, airports which are part of the transport infrastructure so open 24/7 the way roads and ports are, the list is endless

We always read about the miseries 3rd parties impose on the GA industry. Yes, it's true. EASA and the CAA impose cost and bureaucracy. Nimbies impose noise and operating challenges. Avgas is horribly expensive. Airport owners want to close and redevelop.
But, ultimately, you know who pays for this? It's the customer. And the GA industry is pretty mediocre in how it treats its customers. This doesn't matter so much to us as enthusiasts, and some will prefer a "grass roots" ethos to a more "consumer" one. Fair enough. But if the question is about attracting people into GA, the industry has a problem that the experience it provides is pretty well designed to discourage people who can afford its services.
Last edited by 421C on Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1326404
421C wrote:But if the question is about attracting people into GA, the industry has a problem that the experience it provides is pretty well designed to discourage people who can afford it services.


That is sadly true. Economics is more your thing than mine, but as consequence of selling something with little or no profit margin, I imagine much of UKGA PPL training finds itself painted into a bit of a corner. There are exceptions, but they aren't the norm.

Ian
By 421C
#1326410
G-BLEW wrote:as consequence of selling something with little or no profit margin, I imagine much of UKGA PPL training finds itself painted into a bit of a corner

I agree, and I don't know what the answer is. I still think that as a starting point, the customer experience and attitudes to service could be rethought without spending any more money, perhaps even helping to improve the economics of a difficult industry.
By IMCR
#1326427
I think you should look at the places that are successful - not that there are too many.

For me L2K has always been a shinning light. Many a visit this summer has seen the apron full with visitors.

Now I agree L2K as an example is a successful for a different reason. It clearly does not seem to be a vibrant training hub with lots of locally based aircraft. It is however very successful at attracting visitors, and if there were more palces like that I suspect more pilots would see a continuing reason to fly.

People go there because it is a reasonably attractive destination. First and foremost they make it easy to get into town - there are bikes (in my opinion a wonderful idea, and very popular they are to), there is a hire car company and the taxis are reasonable. The airport runs on a pretty hassle free basis, and until recently they were even well set up to deal with flight plans. It all adds up to a package people like.

On the other hand most places in the UK dont promote themselves as destinations, and when you get there, you are usually "stuck" with expensive taxis as the only means of getting anywhere.

Before Bembridge lost its operator I chatted to them about having bikes - and they agreed they would. Bembridge use to do really well. It was becoming a destination that pilots and there friends loved and reflected in the number of visitors. Since the cafe and "club house" has closed it has again become rather tired and far less popular. In fact the local 'attractions" have changed, but people obviously like the comforts that were previously on offer.
By 421C
#1326444
IMCR wrote:I think you should look at the places that are successful - not that there are too many.

For me L2K has always been a shinning light. Many a visit this summer has seen the apron full with visitors.


I was mainly talking about schools/clubs, but also agree on airports. For me L2K is not about the town (nice as it is) but just about the basics of the airport experience. They have an apron and a terminal. The apron is big enough to host visiting aircraft. It is next to the terminal, so you get out of your airplane and walk 30 paces into the terminal. A friendly person takes your payment in about 30secs. You walk another 30 paces to a decent smart restaurant.

Your £x00 lunch is at least a pleasure and uplifting in that the experience seems to have been designed, amazingly enough, for your convenience.

In the UK, it almost feels "wrong" to be writing this. There was no PPR. No jobsworth discussion on how un-burdensome a hivis jacket is. The apron-terminal arrangement is really convenient. You know as a UK pilot there are endless good reasons why it can't be like this.....
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By Waveflyer
#1326450
Reading the most recent posts perhaps you would draw the conclusion that the main problem is with ourselves. We would rather put up with second class than do something about it.

You see it on the forum. People getting flamed for daring to suggest something is wrong rather than being supported and encouraged to do something about it.

In our works reception-
"If you want something different do something different".
"If you keep doing the same old thing you will get the same old thing".
By IMCR
#1326453
421C

L2K so well sumed up.

Another destination I use to love going to was Aldreney. Now there is a very good example.

Its a really pretty island, if you are taking passengers feels to them like they are going some where, and if you are taking yourself, a bit of a challenge to start with. When you get there lunch at the harbour on a nice day is a pleasure and there are a few good resteraunts in the town.

Now if you sail there the bike shop is on the quay and the water taxi wisks you ashore (if you need one). There is almost no red tape and although you fill out the usual customs declaration no one really cares. When you sail back to the UK everyone cares even less where you came from and most do nothing. Of course there is no question of a flight plan or prevention of terrorism or goodness knows what else.

.. .. .. and yet when it comes to GA I think it still meant to be 48 hours notice, and there are no bikes at the airport, (albiet a taxi to the quay is quick and cheapish), and they are reasonably rigorous about the paperwork, and thank good ness it has changed but it was all class A and you couldnt transit over in the airway without an IR (and still cant).

I think that is all enough to put people off - so they decide its all too much hassle and just dont bother. Even the duty free fuel is not enough - and it is an absolute bargain!

It seems to me if you have an airport somewhere attractive give people reasons to visit, make it easy for them, and they will, they will turn up in their droves, and that is what we all want.
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By jasoncuk
#1326454
Well the AOA is asking the government and CAA to help smaller airports


While we are all happy to beat up on the CAA or Government when justified, this is a more subtle point that airports, flying schools and other aviation businesses just don't tend to have a customer first mentality. Of course some do but aviation feels like hard work in the UK.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1326460
IMCR, I agree with your general point but this is wrong:

IMCR wrote:.. .. .. and yet when it comes to GA I think it still meant to be 48 hours notice,


Notification period to/from the CI is 12 hours and has been for decades. Daft, but not as daft as 48.
By 150bugsmasher
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1326465
I think some of the replies are really hitting the nail on the head.

Customer service in GA is generally awful. Of course there are exceptions but you either pay for this (Norwich) or happily stumble upon it (Compton Abbas)

The majority of people involved in GA seem to be male and in their 50s. There is lots of rhetoric about getting young people into GA, but this obviously isn't a recent problem.

Yes GA is expensive, but it isn't unaffordable for many, and frankly when those go on about the cost - it sounds like an exscuse to me. That said a more proportionate regulatory system would help, and it seems that sings with current political fashions for smaller governments.

Problems with the aging GA fleet and airfield closures are on the other hand purely economic.

I'm ready to be corrected here, but it is my understanding that the maintenance costs between new and old planes are fairly similar, and the old planes have had their capital paid off long ago, thus to operate new planes would need a vast inflation on operators prices it's unviable. Forays into diesel seem unfortunately to have done nothing to change that.

I hate to see airfields closing, but the problem as I see it is far from the world of aviation. The value of that airfield is linked to how many houses can be built on it, and the value of those potential houses keeps on going up. I think this is down to us Brits kidding ourselves that we don't need to build on the green-belt but can still expand our population massively over the past 50 years. Not to mention all those council houses that were sold and never replaced. This trend is not restricted to airfields, golf courses. Music venues / Pubs etc are all suffering the same fate. The uncomfortable truth is that many on here who complain about their local airfields closing are the same that have benefited hugely from the inflation in the value of their house.

How do we fix all this? Here are my suggestions.
Support businesses with great customer service and complain to those that don't, we sometimes forget we're the customer!
We should all become missionarys for aviation, take as many friends up on bimbles/trips to Le Touqet, buy trial lessons for all your children/nieces/nephews/grand children/strangers in the street.
Be positive! Yes AVGAS is expensive, but it's a miracle they still let us buy a leaded fuel!
Join AOPA or the LAA or anyone that will lobby for more reasonable regulation, and give us one strong loud voice. If you doubt the power if lobbying, just look at the NRA in the US, the only thing these organisations need is money, they already have the will and the direction.
And finally get involved in fighting for airfields. Write to your MP, and the local paper, and pay that slightly higher landing fee in the hope a profitable airfield won't be looking for buyers!
#1326477
Dare I say - too much bad press in aviation forums. Can't go there, can't do that, duff engineers, duff clubs, duff aircraft, grumpy ATCOs, expensive fuel, landing fees by mortgage, Hi-vis or death by firing squad, regulation, what kind of license do I really have, need for check flights ..............etc !! Pilots get smitten !
By Barcli
#1326516
customer service
customer service
customer service
customer service
customer service
customer service
customer service
customer service
customer service

About time the UK woke up - it is something most of the US actually do very well... unlike here :x
By PeteM
#1326557
Bill McCarthy wrote:Dare I say - too much bad press in aviation forums. Can't go there, can't do that, duff engineers, duff clubs, duff aircraft, grumpy ATCOs, expensive fuel, landing fees by mortgage, Hi-vis or death by firing squad, regulation, what kind of license do I really have, need for check flights ..............etc !! Pilots get smitten !


The whole point of most of the negativity is that the things people complain of are not necessary, not required and usually down to people who simply represent the very worst in ' British customer service'. Unfortunately when they go bankrupt - as most richly deserve, there is nearly always collateral damage - other businesses crippled or even airfields closed.

Frankly there are simply far to many people trying to make a business out of GA. Equally the level of dishonesty and fraudulent dealings in GA make the motor trade look honest. It could be a lot better, but so many of these 'businesses' rely upon the ignorance of punters in GA and there is a lot of it. Trading standards and the CAA are pretty much useless, one does not understand and the other is more interested in collecting fees than being an effective regulator. The trade organisations as in many industries are nothing more than window dressing. So the only protection we have - is each other, long may the negativity continue!!!
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