Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1273504
So we like to dance around and avoid an uncomfortable subject, if I read between the lines correctly.

I think we all have a responsibility to our fellow flyers, and when we notice something amiss we should do our part to help resolve a situation. We should care.

I live in a country where the suicide rate is somewhat higher than it is in the UK and it is easy to see why. Canada is a lonely place.

We all face emotional challenges in our lives and suicide like murder is an unfortunate irrevocable act that can be avoided if time and consideration takes place, and if the people who consider their fellow flyers to be friends take note, and take appropriate action, such things need not progress.
Pilots who fly aeroplanes usually have intuition beyond 'normal' people, it's how many of us survive, we don't go where intuition suggests there is danger. We ignore our intuitions at our own peril.

Flying instructors have to be psychologists as well. We need to read our students and know when they are ready and prepared to accept the instruction we're about to give.
This attribute is also useful for spotting people in distress and we're in a position to prevent people getting into the cockpit when they are set upon an unfortunate path.

I had my own Goodwood experience.
I'd flown there in the MkV Auster for a breakfast patrol.
I'd also just broken up with a girlfriend... This was really bad because I had fallen in love with another girl beforehand, and this was natural, not 'oh I'll date this girl and we'll see how it goes', it was simply being in her company through the flying club I had created... When we go against 'real love' in the way I did, applying the rational ideals I had learned in my youth rather than the natural emotions we all have, then we set ourselves up for some emotional stress.
I replaced my real love with another more practical girlfriend and it did not work out.
So there was Mark, a victim of many a heartbreak of his own, showing concern for me, flying the Auster on my own following what was a serious heartbreak for me.
But though I was certainly upset I was not suicidal, even so the consideration Mark and some of my friends had for me that day was very much appreciated.

So let's not dance around this uncomfortable subject, rather let's face it, learn from it, and show more human consideration for others that share the air we enjoy, but who from time to time go through difficult emotional times as we all do.
User avatar
By kanga
#1273515
MichaelP wrote:..
I live in a country where the suicide rate is somewhat higher than it is in the UK and it is easy to see why. Canada is a lonely place.

...


.. and where many of the local people may live in lonely places where firearm ownership is a household norm (a matter of survival or at least of nutritional supplement...); and is common even in less lonely places. This puts the means of self-harm into the hands of many of the vulnerable. In UK this is much rarer - but a powered aircraft is quite an effective means .. :( .. so all aerodrome denizens may come to be in a position to detect and forestall an incipient tragedy
User avatar
By kanga
#1273517
chevvron wrote:..
A '737 was given an immediate right turn off 24 at Farnborough, a perfectly standard procedure if there is traffic on the ILS for Odiham. A resident of Fleet phoned to complain and was told what happened.
Headlines in the local paper:
'Jet departing Farnborough has to make emergency turn to avoid helicopter which strayed into its path'.


I assumed that the incident reported below was just a normal gliding 'out landing', to which the emergency services may have been called by some onlooker. Fire & Rescue (as usual) would presumably then have put out a brief press release to forestall enquiries. Anyway, I have no more details. Whatever, local paper headline has to use the word 'crash':

http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/Gl ... story.html
By chevvron
#1273530
Precisely, this is what they do all the time. As I said, until we know all the facts, we shouldn't conjecture.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1273546
Marjorie wrote:
SteveC wrote:When an individual threatens to off themselves with a aircraft it reflects on us as a group.


I have spent some time trying to work out why you wrote that. It says quite a lot about the way your mind works.

On the basis that some posters were 'spoiling your holiday' by asking you questions on the DZ thread, can you apologise for that comment so as not to spoil lots of other people's holidays? It was heartless and blindingly selfish.


I have absolutely no idea what you meant by that and to be honest with your history of goading and baiting me I don't really care. You are now on the forum foe list function so I won't see whatever pointless response you make.

My post was merely to point out what a great job those dealing with the situation did in resolving it. Unfortunately choosing to use an aircraft as a means of self destruction will just come to haunt the GA community and how we access such "loaded guns". Believe me when I say those actions will have repercussions for us all.
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1273588
Soyez calme mes amis.

Disagreement is indeed no problem, as are different view points.

No problem at all to let this thread carry on as it just discusses something which has been in the news, as some have already stated not all facts are known as yet so some restraint may be appropriate.
User avatar
By Flying_john
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1273595
Oh dear - perhaps I now know why Ed donked the original thread.

My purpose in posting originally was to give any of you who may have been prepping to go to Goodwood a heads up that you may not be allowed in. We waited nearlly and hour and a half with no knowledge of when they would re-open.

On our own arrival a student was being shown where to park etc in preparation for his solo landaway and although students should be prepared for all eventualities, there is a chance that on being told he could not land at Goodwood may have been unerved. I am reminded of the Student at Southend told to orbit to allow a Jet in!.

So my intentions were not to give journo's a hook, nor to advertise this pilots personal difficulities, infact I was careful not to name anyone or give aircraft reg etc.

John
User avatar
By Rich V
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1273613
John fwiw I thought your original post was short and to the point, and the intent was clear, to me at least. In fact I saw it as I was just about to leave home for Goodwood, to fly; I checked NOTAMs - there wasn't one - but delayed leaving just in case as a result of your post. By the time I did get to Gwd it was business as usual.

I did think one of the subsequent posts in the donked thread was pointless and in very poor taste.

Rich
User avatar
By DarrenL
#1273622
Marjorie wrote:
SteveC wrote:When an individual threatens to off themselves with a aircraft it reflects on us as a group.

If someone takes an overdose, it's hardly a reflection on the pharmaceutical industry. :roll:


No, but if this person decided to off themself by diving his Cessna into a puppy farm it most certainly would, in exactly the same way that hundreds of thousands of firearms users were impacted by the actions of individuals in Hungerford and Dunblane in the last century. I am of course, not aware of this particular individual's intentions.

In your analogy, you're incorrectly comparing the users and the industry. Smith and Wesson weren't particularly affected by the UK handgun ban. The shooters were massively. It's always the user group who sees the affects first, because the market for anything these days tends to be global, whilst scrutiny and legislation is local. In the same way that Cessna would not be hugely affected if the UK did ban light GA because a disturbed individual crashed his plane into a school (again, I reiterate that this was most likely not the intention of the individual concerned). And that is not outside of the realms of possibility, if not a slight diversion from, or expansion on the topic of the thread.
User avatar
By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1273623
My last comment on this thread as I refuse to give it oxygen.

I cannot believe the insensitive language and attitudes being shown by some here. This is a real person with problems, their family may come to read this (as may they). Were it you or yours would you want your loved ones to read some of what's written here?

This person, a member of our 'community' (used as the justification by some here), has to get over the incident and rebuild their life. At least afford them the respect of allowing to do so without additional stigma.

Frankly I'm disgusted.
By lurker1
#1273635
Well said Flintstone. I sometimes find it difficult to understand why forumites insist on commenting on matters like this. Are you all seeking the limelight or just tempted by the thread to comment. As the thread OP said,there was a respectful purpose to this thread originally...but that has sunk into the mire now.
By Frank Leopald
#1273698
Having been involved with someone who had long term mental illness, which included a real attempt to end their life, sadly I'm in a position to pass on some advice.

This is aimed at anyone who finds the subject difficult and uses sensitivity around the person to protect them in some way.

http://blog.ted.com/2013/12/18/how-should-we-talk-about-mental-health/

You see talking about it is a positive not negative process and will help bring down some of the stigma and taboos that hamper the debate we need to have. In the same way as getting blokes to talk about their Prostate gland.

Look out for cries for help either verbal or action; sitting on a bridge parapet can characterise this.
Look out for some who you know is depressed suddenly becomes lively, happy, seemingly at one with the world at last; urgent intervention might be needed as this is often a sign they've found their preferred method of suicide and have decided to go through with it.

So if you think the events at Goodwood should not be aired here then you may want to look into the various sources of advice on the net. Time for Change and Mind would be a good start.

Lastly, think about this person and how they are today. I guess their overall emotion will be one of relief. Now the road to healing can start and they will eventually be able to say they're once again "safe".

FL
By Papa Jo
#1273717
Frank, what you are in a position to do is to pass on advice to someone who knows the person involved. What you are not in a position to do is to offer advice to people who do not know the the individual, or perhaps more importantly, the detail or circumstances of what happened. There are some distasteful and naive comments on this thread, without the slightest regard for the feelings of the inviduals involved. I say individuals, because it's not just about the poor fellow involved, it's about the wider team at Goodwood who, by all accounts, worked so very hard to bring a complex situation to a happier conclusion. I was there and I witnessed the genuine compassion and concern for this person.

Whilst the majority of posts in this thread are well meaning, the minority have used the subject as a cruel and inappropriate excuse to use language about someone that they neither know or care about, instead choosing to suggest that some form of aviation brotherhood is enough of a mask to hide the true reasons for their comments.

The person involved is known to me directly and will have read this thread...he is unlikely to have drawn any comfort from the words in the previous posts.

MOD: please, I appeal to your human side to withdraw this and any foregoing commentary.
By Bob_pipedream
#1273726
Quite agree Frank.

Often the reason why someone gets to that 'point' is because they feel there is no hope. Sometimes that's because people ignore, don't help or avoid them. The one thing worse than being talked about - is not being talked about. Often sweeping under carpet makes things worse as they comes across as indifference.

Papa
I have no knowledge of the circumstances, but if the person or their family is reading this, then I hope we can say that they should not feel alone and that our thoughts are with them. Many suffer at some point in their lives and some get to that point where it becomes too much. Some are brave enough to admit it like Stephen fry. As for stigma, Churchill had severe depression and he is regarded by most as the greatest Briton. The world would have been a very different and worse place without him.

My one hope is that I am approachable enough that should anyone ever need help and want to talk, that they would feel comfortable enough to talk to me.

Perhaps you are right and this thread should be deleted or perhaps it may help educate some. Quite frankly, I don't know. But if the person does read this thread then I have been at a very low point too before in my life. Many people are lucky and never know real pain. Some people have very simple needs and expectations of life and they never suffer.

All I can say is that things can and do get better. Time heals and eventually offers alternative perspectives. Hang on.