Rule 5 and Helis

[Miscellaneous]

Morning All,

How is Rule 5 applied for helis landing / taking off from hotel grounds not usually used for the purpose? Is CAA permission required for the period covering the use, or has the land owner the authority? What restrictions apply to how far from buildings, car park, public roads?

I have looked at rules 5 & 6, but still not sure.

Cheers,

Misc.

[greggj]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1676/Rule%205 ... 02005a.pdf
"(ii) Any helicopter flying shall be exempt from the land clear rule." ?

[JoeC]

Land clear is different.

500 foot rule doesn't apply when taking off or landing, otherwise we'd never get anywhere!

Landowners permission is required to use their land.

[Miscellaneous]

Thanks guys.

Gregg, it's not the land clear rule I am asking about.

Joe, agree rule 5 not applicable at authorised landing site. What I am asking is how a particular piece of land becomes authorised for take off/landing and what criteria it should meet? EG to be designated as an authoisred site should it be a minimum distance from the hotel, public road etc.?

Misc.

[dublinpilot]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1676/Rule%205%20amended%201%20April%202005a.pdf
"(ii) Any helicopter flying shall be exempt from the land clear rule." ?

Thanks. I never knew that. I wonder that the thinking is behind it? They need a smaller area to land on, even in the event of a power failure?

[JoeC]

Thanks guys.

Gregg, it's not the land clear rule I am asking about.

Joe, agree rule 5 not applicable at authorised landing site. What I am asking is how a particular piece of land becomes authorised for take off/landing and what criteria it should meet? EG to be designated as an authoisred site should it be a minimum distance from the hotel, public road etc.?

Misc.

AIUI all you need is the landowner's permission and common sense/airmanship. I can't remember anything from air law that specifies the requirements for the landing site for a private flight. Happy to be corrected.

[Rotorboater]

I hope you are not after info to complain about someone

[Miscellaneous]

Joe, at face value that would make sense, however I would have thought there would be an allowance for downdraft and getting it a little wrong?

Rotorboater, guilty consciense

Whatever you have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Misc.

[Pugh Pugh]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1676/Rule%205%20amended%201%20April%202005a.pdf
"(ii) Any helicopter flying shall be exempt from the land clear rule." ?

Thanks. I never knew that. I wonder that the thinking is behind it? They need a smaller area to land on, even in the event of a power failure?

With my huge experience on rotary wing (30 mins trial lesson ), I am not sure, but, excepting auto rotation with its best performance limitation on into-wind GS, I've always believed the glide clear rule doesn't apply because ... well ... choppers can't glide clear more than a very short distance, so all a bit irrelevant. I sit to be corrected, however.

[JoeC]

, however I would have thought there would be an allowance for downdraft and getting it a little wrong?

Sure is - see airmanship/common sense

You couldn't legislate for such a thing. A 2 seater piston robbo would have completely different "getting it a little wrong" characteristics to a twin turbine Eurocopter.

[muffin]

Believe me, If you ever needed to do a real EOL to the ground the last thing on your mind would be Rule 5.

Also, could somebody give an official reference for the "landowners permission " bit as AFAIK it is an urban myth.

[JoeC]

Also, could somebody give an official reference for the "landowners permission " bit as AFAIK it is an urban myth.

er, PPR at the vast majority of UK GA airfields is one example.

[The Kid from Red Bank]

Landowners permission is all that's required, Pilot judges whether its safe or not. Rule 5 does not apply to take offs and landings 'in accordance with normal aviation practice'

I think Landowners permission is just that. Whoever owns the land gives their permission? Whether the 'Operator' of the land gives permission on behalf of the owner is another thing. Where's a lawyer when you need one?

[Lefty]

How does one judge what would constitute a "normal / safe" approach path for a helicopter? Whilst heli's are capable of VTOL, it is not common practice for them to hover over a landing site at say 500 ft and descend vertically to land - or to climb vertically to 500 ft before transitioning to forward flight. I understand that such vertical descents / climbs are only done when absolutely no other option is available.

I know of two entirely different situations.
1) a landing site that is surrounded by 120 - 150 ft trees, but is away from residential properties (except the rather well heeled pax they are collecting). The pilot overflys the nearest properties at greater than 5-600 ft and transitions into the hover at 150ft over the landing site. All good and no- one is unduly inconvenienced.
2) a landing site in a residential area. The site is too small to transition to forward flight within the site - so pilot routinely climbs out and transitions over the neighbours houses / gardens at 30-50 ft whilst starting to climb. This pilot is the land owner (of the landing site), but surely his neighbours should have some protection, both in terms of safety, and disturbance / nuisance?

I'm not impacted by this, but a friend is. I don't want to stop anyone flying, but wondered what protection joe public has in the latter situation?

As a point of interest, we used to have heli training at Waltham, but they were chucked out because they repeatedly flew over the neighbouring houses at 50' agl. There were plenty of approach paths that didn't involve flying over houses, but despite repeated requests, they just continued to do so - and consequently were asked to leave.

[mona44]

Two sets of rules apply. If it's an AOC flight (public transport) then site dimensions, in and out routes, etc apply. Criteria for this is specific to the the type of aircraft used. If it's a private flight, then it's whatever the commander considers safe and suitable. As already said, the 500f rule goes out the window once you are committed to landing. If the site is deemed to be within a congested area a CAA permission is required regardless of the flight classification.

Mona
(Happy New Year!)