Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104171
I broadly agree with you - the fatal accident rate for gyros in the UK is about an order of magnitude worse than any other form of recreational aviation.

I don't believe that gyros are fundamentally unsafe any more than flexwings, gliders, or any other form of aeroplane are. My feeling is that the problem is one of critical mass.

Take microlights for example - there are around 4,000 airframes in the UK, and a proportional number of pilots. A microlight pilot is a member of a club where there are likely to be a dozen or more other aeroplanes, 20+ other pilots, and he'll probably know of a reasonably nearby microlight school if he needs any training. If he needs his permit done he has a choice of a couple of hundred inspectors, and a couple of hundred check pilots across the country to do that for him. And so on - extend into gliding, certified GA, you name it. And with that sort of critical mass, there are plenty of people comparing notes on good design, good maintenance practice, good flying practice, and so-on.

The problem, in my opinion, with gyros is that with such a tiny community - a small and poorly resourced association, a couple of hundred airframes, a similar number of pilots, a tiny number of schools, inspectors and instructors: as well as usually only a couple of similar aircraft in any individual club - there hasn't been the tendency to sort out the problems that do exist, properly. So whilst in theory gyros are much older than, say, flexwings - in practice the aircraft and the community behind it are much less mature. And so they are still having the sort of mistakes and accident rates that we associated with microlights in the early 1980s.

How to solve it? In my opinion it's all about communications. The BRA needs to be much more aggressive about safety, the community need to be a bit less maverick and a lot more joined up, and with time the community as a whole will find and fix the fundamental safety issues in the way that aeroplanes did in the 30s, gliders in the 50s and microlights in the 80s.

Will that happen? To be honest, I doubt it. I don't detect the will, or the growth that would make it possible.

G
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104182
I know a couple of gyro pilots who got into it purely because it is totally unregulated. No compulsory medical, no compulsary training no compulsory flight exams.

I saw the Shoreham accident aircraft whilst departing Shoreham today. Damage didn't seem extensive (from what I could see - looking down from above) looked like just bent rotor blades.
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By mick w
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104184
Heli , never , gyro maybe , it's the " permanent autorotation " bit , that appeals to me .
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104196
Lefty wrote:I know a couple of gyro pilots who got into it purely because it is totally unregulated. No compulsory medical, no compulsary training no compulsory flight exams.

I saw the Shoreham accident aircraft whilst departing Shoreham today. Damage didn't seem extensive (from what I could see - looking down from above) looked like just bent rotor blades.


That might be how they behave, but actually the regulations for gyros are broadly the same as for microlights. PPL(Gyro), medical declaration, annual permit revalidation, and mods approved against BCAR Section T (as opposed to Section S for microlights).

G
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By Cookie
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104198
To be honest, I doubt it. I don't detect the will


I was involved with the BRA a few years back, and conducted some work at the request of a few LAA members with the BRA and CAA towards instructor and examiner qualifications and standardisation. I see that work has now been completed in the form of a PPL syllabus and Standards Document 44.

Paperwork is only half of the battle in moving safety forwards; there is a real need for improvement in the non-technical skills involved with owning and operating gyroplanes.Most of the fatal accidents in gyroplanes appear to be down to 'undesired aircraft state' - one of the three basic components in Threat and Error Management.
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104204
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
Lefty wrote:I know a couple of gyro pilots who got into it purely because it is totally unregulated. No compulsory medical, no compulsary training no compulsory flight exams.

I saw the Shoreham accident aircraft whilst departing Shoreham today. Damage didn't seem extensive (from what I could see - looking down from above) looked like just bent rotor blades.


That might be how they behave, but actually the regulations for gyros are broadly the same as for microlights. PPL(Gyro), medical declaration, annual permit revalidation, and mods approved against BCAR Section T (as opposed to Section S for microlights).

G


You are right - but let's be realistic - a "self declaration" that you feel fit enough to fly is effectively zero regulation. Nobody ever checks.
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By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104206
Lefty wrote:
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
Lefty wrote:I know a couple of gyro pilots who got into it purely because it is totally unregulated. No compulsory medical, no compulsary training no compulsory flight exams.

I saw the Shoreham accident aircraft whilst departing Shoreham today. Damage didn't seem extensive (from what I could see - looking down from above) looked like just bent rotor blades.


That might be how they behave, but actually the regulations for gyros are broadly the same as for microlights. PPL(Gyro), medical declaration, annual permit revalidation, and mods approved against BCAR Section T (as opposed to Section S for microlights).

G


You are right - but let's be realistic - a "self declaration" that you feel fit enough to fly is effectively zero regulation. Nobody ever checks.



At least the cough and drop is less embarrassing.
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By madmaveric
#1104218
Flintstone wrote:At least the cough and drop is less embarrassing.


I guess that depends on if you insist on wearing a nurses outfit during the medical.

Better still I wonder if its possible to persuade the 'other half' that the CAA says she has to do it :D

I always thought these looked a bit top heavy with a small undercarriage (The Gyros not the other half). As they land mostly on grass fields could this make them more susceptible to take off/landing instability especially in cross winds?

I have no idea if this is the case, I have a bit of mechanical engineering but not much flying experience. Just interested if this could contribute to the stats.
By Bill McCarthy
#1104220
Ken Wallis knows a bit about autogyros and must have totted many hours. He survived a nasty crash where you may think he could have sorted the situation - it's on youtube. Boy was he lucky.
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By neilcharlton
#1104233
Back in the days of kit built gyro's there were a number of issues in terms of design. I remember the RAF2000 having a bad reputation with stabilisation. With the introduction of CAA permit gyros i was lead to believe they had become a lot safer design/ build along with pilot training etc. I now know of accidents involving the latest Magni m24 and Calidus gyro's which have maybe been flying in the UK for less than 12 months which is worrying. I was seriously thinking about doing a PPL (G) , they are a lot of fun , probably not so fun to crash though :shock:
By Rodger_Wilco
#1104248
Autogros are pretty cool, and the fact they dont stall should mean they are very safe..... however... the accident rates are terrible, have always been terrible and are terrible in other countries too. Im not convinced the newer Autogros are radically safer than those which proceeded them.

All though autogyros dont stall, they do have their own weaknesses, the main one being "unloading the rotor" , ie sticking those nose down so that the airflow is going through the rotors from above. Once in that situation it is unrecoverable.

All things said, I would happly go for a ride with an experienced ( very experienced ) pilot and would feel a lot safer than flying anything with the word "Robinson" in the name!
By Paultheparaglider
#1104251
Lefty wrote:I know a couple of gyro pilots who got into it purely because it is totally unregulated. No compulsory medical, no compulsary training no compulsory flight exams.


That just isn't correct. You need a licence to fly them, and although the self cert medical is an easier regulatory regimen than a Class 2 thingy, you also need to sit a few exams.

You must be confusing them with paramotors. We don't need anything to fly those.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1104264
Lefty wrote:
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
Lefty wrote:I know a couple of gyro pilots who got into it purely because it is totally unregulated. No compulsory medical, no compulsary training no compulsory flight exams.

I saw the Shoreham accident aircraft whilst departing Shoreham today. Damage didn't seem extensive (from what I could see - looking down from above) looked like just bent rotor blades.


That might be how they behave, but actually the regulations for gyros are broadly the same as for microlights. PPL(Gyro), medical declaration, annual permit revalidation, and mods approved against BCAR Section T (as opposed to Section S for microlights).

G


You are right - but let's be realistic - a "self declaration" that you feel fit enough to fly is effectively zero regulation. Nobody ever checks.


But, being equally realistic, medical incapacitation is a tiny fraction of accidents - air, road, rail, bicycle or any other variety, with or without a medical. Remove alcohol from the equation and it's virtually zero.

G
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By Rod1
#1104297
From Flyer news;

Six UK pilots are the latest graduates of a unique course aimed at providing pilots with the skills required to flight test light aircraft. Run jointly by the UK CAA and the LAA, the latest course offered dedicated training to enable experienced AutoGyro pilots to be able to test and evaluate such aircraft. This is believed to be the first course to teach autogyro testing ever developed.

The week-long course, run from the LAA’s headquarters at Turweston Aerodrome, taught the basics of stability and control with dedicated sorties on four very different fixed wing aircraft – Optica, EuroFox, SkyRanger and Eurostar. In addition to flying all the fixed wing types the Gyro students flew dedicated sorties in the Magni M24 and RotorSport Calidus two seat autogyros.

May help?
Rod1