Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402428
Most Bulldogs leak, it's a fact of life. There was a design flaw where the guttering around the back of the windscreen didn't empty down the sides but just stopped at the bottom of the canopy. Subsequently the water used to run into the cabin there. If you look at the RAF ones they have a big solid lump of some sort of brown putty there with a channel carved in it to try and channel the water outwards. It isn't 100% successful but I'm sure it's better than nothing! :D
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402438
We got a brand new DA20-C1 where the reliable 912 engine had been replaced by an unreliable IO-240 engine that was to give us so much trouble in the following months...

But what shocked me most was the cheapo nasty Sensenich propeller fitted to it... Vancouver is known for rain, and here was an amateur propeller with a resin leading edge on it!
I knew resin leading edges from home made propellers in England
(Give me an Evra any day, very good propellers).

The DA20-C1 could not be operated in BC with this propeller.

I phoned Calgary and Edmonton to ask what they did... "We don't fly these aircraft when it rains" was the answer. Both places had gone through several propellers that shattered in the rain.
I was told that the RPM should be reduced to 2,000 if the DA20-C1 Eclipse is flown in rain.
We'd bought a crappy aeroplane we could not operate. I always regard Diamond as being a 90% company, they go that far with their products but can't be bothered to go the extra 10%.

Then I learned that MT supplied a propeller under an STC and it had a metal leading edge.
Off came that Sensenich like hot snot, and on went an brand new MT propeller, and that propeller is still on the aircraft 7 years and 3,000 hours later.
I don't care if you fly full throttle through the rain with the MT propeller fitted, and I could sleep at nights.

So what if a little paint comes off, it's wear and tear on a prop regardless of what it's made of. It can be touched up.

There are propellers and propellers.
I was shocked to find a Hoffmann propeller made with resin leading edges... It came with a Katana we bought... It was relegated to spare, emergency use status.

Home builders were restricted to resin leading edges as an improperly attached metal leading edge can come off like a bullet!
If you're smart you will buy an Evra, Hoffmann, or MT propeller with metal leading edges.
These props cost three times as much as anything else, but you can fly with the confidence that those blades flying at high subsonic speeds will survive.

I flew the Stolp Starlet out of Old Sarum once, it was under propped at that time. I told them to buy an Evra.
The Evra D11-28-4C propeller on the Condors lasted years and years and years, and those Condors flew in all weathers, with the occasional precautionary landing!
(Not by me, I didn't push the weather like that myself).
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By townleyc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402451
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Most Bulldogs leak, it's a fact of life.


I know a few Bulldogs that leak, but they usually cock a leg first :lol:

KE
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402455
Russ Bost wrote:When I was training I flew (in a 152) in light showers on several occasions with a couple of different instructors - no great issue was made of this,

No mention of freezing level and checking o.a.t. no matter how see through the rain is?
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By Full Metal Jackass
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402460
Am I the only one here to actually seek out a nearby shower when approaching my destination, thus eliminating the myriad collections of splattered bugs from the wings of the plane???
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By akg1486
#1402462
Full Metal Jackass wrote:Am I the only one here to actually seek out a nearby shower when approaching my destination, thus eliminating the myriad collections of splattered bugs from the wings of the plane???

Nope, you're not alone. I do that too. It makes the post-flight wash so much easier.
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By mick w
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402522
I just park on the Apron at L2K for the weekend !!. :thumright:
By WAPflyer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402916
When learning to fly I was taught that if you can see through a shower of rain (and it's not below a big CB) you can fly through it. That sort of simple rule makes decisions easy. (EDIT: But see Irv's warning about OAT below, which I should have mentioned of course.)

Scariest thing I have seen from the air was an about-to-become-active thunderstorm a good number of miles away - the sight of a lightning strike from the dark cloud to the ground (something I have never seen before or since) was an awesome thing. It was like a big warning sign : Turn around now.

I flew through falling snow once whilst training for my IMC rating. The instructor didn't tell me until it was time to remove my hood and position to land. No big deal.
Last edited by WAPflyer on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Jamesc_1729
#1402920
Hi

In addition to leaks / prop damage I understand there is another reason not to fly (or be careful) in rain. I've been told that some aircraft when wet have (slightly) different aerodynamic properties I.e. A wet wing doesn't produce as much lift and stall speeds will be higher.

Interested to hear if this is a widely held belief.?

James
By ChrisT
#1402927
Jamesc_1729 wrote:I've been told that some aircraft when wet have (slightly) different aerodynamic properties


I did my training on the Slingsby T61f/Venture motor glider - I never tried stalling with wet wings but was always warned about a very abrupt stall when wings were wet (although it still stalled at the same speed) and to make sure not to get slow on the approach.

My instructor related a story whereby instead of the usual very benign stall it dropped a wing and started spinning - this in an aircraft which is usually very difficult to spin!

I believe some of the modern laminar flow wings can have issues too.

Chris
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402936
Grob 109B POH indicates an extra 6kt for landing in the rain; 10% extra speed and around 20% extra energy to dissipate.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402966
WAPflyer wrote:When learning to fly I was taught that if you can see through a shower of rain (and it's not below a big CB) you can fly through it. That sort of simple rule makes decisions easy.l.

And has killed people... But easily! Check the o.a.t.!
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1402967
One thing to be aware of is that when landing in rain, the droplets on the screen will change the appearance of the runway, and make it more difficult to judge height and distance.
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By leifarm
#1402980
Certainly quite a few early fibreglass gliders have markedly worse performance in the rain. I landed a PIK 20 in rain once and would estimate a stall speed increase of about 50 %. The VSI was hitting the stop, so I was sinking more than 1000 fpm. If you fly an LS3, PIK 20, Nimbus 2 or similar plane you learn to keep out of the rain..
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1403020
leifarm wrote:Certainly quite a few early fibreglass gliders have markedly worse performance in the rain. I landed a PIK 20 in rain once and would estimate a stall speed increase of about 50 %. The VSI was hitting the stop, so I was sinking more than 1000 fpm. If you fly an LS3, PIK 20, Nimbus 2 or similar plane you learn to keep out of the rain..


Indeed.

An LS3 with wet wings is only going one way - down!

All depends on the profile - those that are (older) thin laminar flow profiles are much more prone than modern profiles or the old fashioned fat ones.