Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1461043
There doesn't seem to be any responsibility on a pilot to send a DEP message, only to file. The AIP says:
If there is no ATSU at the departure aerodrome, or the ATSU is not connected to the AFTN, the pilot must ensure that the departure time is passed to the Parent AFTN Unit for onward transmission

You just need to make sure that the departure time is passed to the parent. Your departure field can do this by telephone, surely?

London Information will activate an FPL, that must be the easiest way, make your call when airborne.
#1461045
Just to add...

I've heard that London Information are overloaded with these requests at the moment. But, if you're airborne and you make the appropriate request on the radio, do you really care what happens next?

Personally - if I'm going to Le Touquet and will be in contact with ATSUs all the way there, I've filed and I make the appropriate request of London Information (or other ATSU) to activate/notify, it makes little difference to me if the DEP message is passed. Le Touquet will have the FPL, whether activated or not. If I'm flying over unpleasant terrain in darkest Scotland, out of comms range, I might care a lot.

What happens next is an internal NATS thing, a situation of their own creation. Probably not my problem.
#1461046
Chilli Monster wrote:
malcolmfrost wrote:Tell you what, leave your phone on, mute it if you want, running as a hotspot. You get airborne phone gets a signal, Skydemon sends a departure message, popup tells you it's gone, job done.
I didn't suggest we should all do it that way, if you want to get your airfield to activate it fine, equally call London Info, or a friendly ATC unit nearby. but if SD can do it, then I would find it convenient.
OK?


No, not OK - the constant "chirruping" of the phone / tablet handshaking with the cell tower is getting to be a pain in the proverbial on the frequency.

If you want to send a DEP message send it at the hold, when you're given line up., before entering the runway. 30 seconds difference won't hurt, Then turn the phone off.


Surely SD can tell that you're taxiing, right? When you move, it can come up with a popup to submit. You leave that up until you're at the hold, then press 'Submit', wait for confirmation, and you're good to go. I agree that I wouldn't want to be faffing with 3G during takeoff, as I typically lose signal pretty quick
#1461048
Section 1.14.3.3 in the UK AIP ENR 1.10 says the following
DEP messages must always be sent for VFR FPLs and IFR FPLs operating DEP messages must always be sent for VFR FPLs and IFR FPLs operating outside Controlled Airspace (CAS) or outside the IFPS Zone.

It doesn't say (or at least I can't see it) how the DEP message is sent. Section 1.14.3.1 says that the pilot is responsible to check that the DEP message has been sent when departing from an aerodrome with ATSU, so the pilot is implicitly responsible in 1.14.3.3.

I've never filed a flight plan in the UK, but plenty in other countries. In my own country (Sweden), the first available information service will activate the flight plan. In Germany, there's always someone on ground. Usually, they activate it for you; it's a good idea to ask. If they can't, the first available information service will.

Closing the flight plan is obviously very different across Europe. When landing at an uncontrolled field in Sweden, I can choose to let the last information service close it or to close it by phone. I always have to explicitly close it, otherwise they will call: first you, then your destination. In Germany, the staff on ground usually closes your flight plan even when uncontrolled. Once, I had seen in advance that the airfield we were going to charged extra for the service, so I asked Bremen Information to close it before landing. They refused to do so unless I had the airfield in sight.

The UK AIP ENR 1.10 states when you have to file and when you should file a VFR flight plan. In Sweden, flight plans are encouraged even if the route is completely outside CAS. In Germany, you're encouraged not to file when flying completely outside CAS. I guess that the traffic volume has quite a bit to do with that.
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1461049
I did try and discuss the matter with Leeds ATC but was put off by the premium rate call charge they have now introduced for telephone calls (they did not respond to e-mail).

I have a direct dial telephone number for them which I can send you by pm if you wish.
#1461051
You have no facility to send a DEP message from inside an aircraft. You only have a radio to ask someone else to do it. There's no requirement for you to carry a laptop, make telephone calls, use an iPad, etc., from within the cockpit.
#1461052
I've tried to stay away after the negativity a couple of pages back!
All I was suggesting was, that if Tim could get SD to send a DEP message ( it already starts logging as airborne at 40 kts), then that would be a good feature to add.
It wasn't suggested as a replacement for the current"system" more an addition.
With the reported understandable reluctance of small airfields to pay massive AFPEX charges, reluctance of larger airfields to do what they see as "not their job" and difficulty getting through on London Info, another option would be useful. It would also mean that (for example) I could depart Popham or a farm strip, after hours, and not have to try and get Southampton, Bournemouth or Info to send a DEP, and concentrate on flying :D
User avatar
By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1461061
I'd be supportive of something along these lines.
Personally my 4g connection is usually just there - I don't have to do anything, it doesn't beep, etc .... it just quietly sits in the background providing connectivity when it can.
Perhaps an extra setting just after the 'Go Flying' button in SkyDemon to the effect of 'Automatically activate flight plan when airborne' and then just leave it to it. It could perhaps alert the pilot 5 minutes after getting airborne if it's been unable to get a data connection, and you could fail back to activating via RT.
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User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1461062
jollyrog wrote:I've heard that London Information are overloaded with these requests at the moment.


If so then I'm afraid my immediate reaction is "Good".

Not because I wish the excellent people at London Info a difficult life, but because this may be an inevitable consequence of their management's idiotic and short-sighted policy on AFPEx charging.

It may drive a change in that policy, and change driven from within an organisation can be more effective and rapid than when attempted from outside.

Regarding auto DEP messaging from SD: Not all devices used in the cockpit have 3G. My Nexus doesn't and that's a conscious decision on my part.
#1461065
rikur_ wrote:Perhaps an extra setting just after the 'Go Flying' button in SkyDemon to the effect of 'Automatically activate flight plan when airborne' and then just leave it to it. It could perhaps alert the pilot 5 minutes after getting airborne if it's been unable to get a data connection, and you could fail back to activating via RT.


This looks very sensible. Only bit I'd add is that it should also confirm the activation if it is successful. If the interference is an issue in your aircraft, then you can turn on flight mode once you get the success/failed response.
#1461066
I'm with Dave W.

One arm of NATS has created a problem for another. Let them sort it out themselves. Some sunny Sunday soon (!), London are going to get so overloaded they will struggle to cope. I hope at that point, the FISOs file an MOR and/or an internal report about workload, service provision and capacity. Likewise, all pilots who have difficulty passing their airborne time should submit an MOR. After which, an investigation will have to be carried out and some remedial action taken.

It's a NATS internal problem, not ours and we shouldn't be masking it with cute home-brew solutions.
#1461078
jollyrog wrote:I'm with Dave W.

One arm of NATS has created a problem for another. Let them sort it out themselves. Some sunny Sunday soon (!), London are going to get so overloaded they will struggle to cope. I hope at that point, the FISOs file an MOR and/or an internal report about workload, service provision and capacity. Likewise, all pilots who have difficulty passing their airborne time should submit an MOR. After which, an investigation will have to be carried out and some remedial action taken.

It's a NATS internal problem, not ours and we shouldn't be masking it with cute home-brew solutions.

If memory serves me right, there are 3 operating positions/frequencies on the FIR suite but normally they are bandboxed into one, so maybe NATS En-route Ltd (NERL) will start 'manning' it properly, staff permitting.
I think AFPEx is administered by NATS Services Ltd, (NSL) so it will be one part of NATS vs the other! :roll:
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#1461101
malcolmfrost wrote:So during the time taken to collate MORs, set up a working party, carry out a consultation and produce recommendations, which will probably say that GA should pay enroute charges if we are to receive FPL services, what do we do :( :(

Let all that happen, *then* come up with the cute, home-brewed work around.

We have no idea what the process would conclude, but demanding money for something that is mandatory and offers no benefit to the pilot is hard to justify. More likely that NATS would sort out its issues.

Can't lose.
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