Latest posts from topic “More on popup clearances into Class A” Latest posts from topic “More on popup clearances into Class A” on “FLYER Forums”. http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56608 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:45:21 +0100 pplir2000 Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:25:26 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=885592#p885592 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=885592#p885592 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A ]]> fuzzy6988 Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:41:15 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=852843#p852843 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=852843#p852843 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A 10W Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:34:44 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=852599#p852599 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=852599#p852599 More on popup clearances into Class A ]]> fuzzy6988 Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:14:59 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=851922#p851922 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=851922#p851922
It sounds like there is sufficient grounds to make a formal complaint.

In America-land, one would guess this would involve filing a lawsuit.

Can you imagine the implications of this if a mid-air collision happened?]]> M609 Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:37:45 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781314#p781314 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781314#p781314 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A
Removing the flight plan from some internal system (what is HCS?) is as good/bad as issuing a CNL


I agree, looks to me that they have some fairly poor SOPs regarding treatment of flights departing CAS. And as someone that has worked with different levels of automation in ATC for some years now, I can´t see any reason for removing the flight from the system. I mean, the UK has gotten rid of local SSR code banks for IFR flights, so freeing up the code is not an issue right? If the RDPS/FDPS part of the London system is as modern as it seems, it should be able to automatically know when the flight has left the FIR/AOR/Designated point in space with a certain time/dist and remove it. Why use time to call the Flight data section to CNL it way before it leaves the FIR? (From a supposedly busy sector)

I know you guys gave the world the Luddites, but really..... ;) ;) ;) ;)]]> peterh337 Tue, 01 Sep 2009 07:42:00 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781252#p781252 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781252#p781252
Removing the flight plan from some internal system (what is HCS?) is as good/bad as issuing a CNL. You have been dropped out of CAS and cannot get back in until a lot of messy stuff is sorted. Unless hazardous weather ahead is a very long way ahead, you will end up doing an orbit - or collecting ice. On one such occassion I had to fly 100nm home in pretty rough IMC, below CAS, because the IFR clearance got dumped very early on and nobody (starting with Manchester who asked me a question about the desired airways entry point that was phrased such that they could wash their hands of it) would touch me with a bargepole.

It is not too hard to establish guidelines for UK regulars to deal with this (basically, always file for FL120 or higher to make sure the IFR clearance "sticks"; this means carrying oxygen which is a near-must anyway due to weather) but this is not something a visiting foreign pilot would know about; it is totally undocumented AFAICS.

When I was working towards the IR in 2005 I found that nobody I knew knew anything about this stuff. And the Eurocontrol routing business was really bad back then, with only one rather weird routing site generating routes which occassionally worked. So I did some digging and wrote this up

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr ... index.html

It probably needs a few updates in light of the above.]]> SwanFIS Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:12:35 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781151#p781151 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781151#p781151 ]]> Dave Phillips Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:52:20 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781126#p781126 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781126#p781126 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A
On the other hand, I'm no longer left wondering. I packed that in a while back :)]]> SwanFIS Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:47:45 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781124#p781124 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781124#p781124
The airways sector calls FPRS (Flight plan section at Swanwick) and says "Leaving the system, working Mil can you cancel it".

The flight plan filed by the pilot is not touched and in this scenario Scottish could access that plan and reinput it into HCS.]]> Dave Phillips Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:40:53 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781121#p781121 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781121#p781121 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A Chilli Monster Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:40:26 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781120#p781120 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781120#p781120
Mike T wrote:I suspect the plan may/could have been removed from the HCS, which would affect future coordination internally, but that's not the same as canceling the FPL I hope. I'd be very surprised if they were arranging for a CNL message to be sent else there's all sorts of implications.


We've had the same problem with Manchester on many occasions. I suspect it's not a CNL but as you say, a removal from the HCS, as the plan gets re-entered by Scottish rather than by the operator.]]> Mike T Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:23:26 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781117#p781117 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781117#p781117
You sure Dave?]]> bookworm Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:16:30 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781108#p781108 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781108#p781108
Dave Phillips wrote:However, if Sector 10/11 cancelled the FPL when the had released the aircraft to the military there would be no way of regenerating that FPL. Consequently the military controller/assistant would have to either file a new FPL or negotiate a tactical joining clearance. Barking mad but indicative of a systematic weakness.


Sector 10/11 has no business cancelling the FPL unless a cancellation of the FPL is explicitly requested by the pilot. MORs should be raised.]]> bookworm Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:12:58 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781105#p781105 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=781105#p781105
We had flight planned in a Cirrus from Prestwick to Lausanne at FL110, routing SID NGY N57 POL A47 DTY L10 RINTI... The FP has been validated by the CFMU (quite an achievement in itself for a confused foreign pilot).


I get "N57 IS PRECEDED BY NGY WHICH IS NOT ONE OF ITS POINTS" and indeed NGY connects to DCS via N615 but NGY N615 DCS N57 POL A47 DTY L10 RINTI seems to work at any time of day so your point stands if that's what you filed.

The AIP however notes for N615
"Daily from 0700 to 2000 (1hr earlier in summer) btn 545632N 0034415W and DCS the lower limit is FL 125 making the Mnm FL (Southbound) FL 130 and Mnm FL (Northbound) FL 140."
A similar restrictions applies on N57.

So I think the CFMU ENV data seems to be in error. When you file a route along airways, the route should only be accepted if the planned route is above the airway MEAs. The route as filed should get rejected, and force you to file DCTs where you want to be below controlled airspace.]]> Dave Phillips Sun, 30 Aug 2009 14:24:36 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780844#p780844 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780844#p780844 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A
Realigning some misconceptions:

The UK military don't jealously guard their Class G. They used to but were forced to realise the futility of such an attitude a few years back. By far the most vocal elements protecting Class G are the GA fraternity. One only has to attend NATMAC to experience to vociferous (and sometimes vicious) attacks by GA.

I don't know why it is so difficult to fly airways to/from Scotland below FL100 in CAS. I do know that NATS proposed (and it was agreed) raising the base level of CAS in the DCS area (can't quite remember the precise location) when the TALLA sector was redesigned a few years back. This raising of the base level also affected a very small number of scheduled services.

One weakness of the 'getting booted out' syndrome is that the original FPL is immediately discarded. As an example, we (LATCC(Mil) used to try and be helpful by taking commercial traffic from LACC Sector 10/11 (basically the airspace between Humberside and the FIR boundary with the Dutch) in order to give it a more expeditious routing to Glasgow/Edinburgh. We would take the aircraft through the EGD323 managed danger areas and then try to put it back into the airways system at NCL. However, if Sector 10/11 cancelled the FPL when the had released the aircraft to the military there would be no way of regenerating that FPL. Consequently the military controller/assistant would have to either file a new FPL or negotiate a tactical joining clearance. Barking mad but indicative of a systematic weakness.]]> peterh337 Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:37:23 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780735#p780735 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780735#p780735
What I don't get is why London Control (or equivalent up north, and its respective adjacent airways control unit(s)) will not provide a continuous service to FL110 traffic even if it is popping out of CAS.

Why this watertight "airways only and everything else we don't touch" separation of control authority? The unit could provide a "Traffic Service" during a brief Class G transit.

Getting booted out of CAS and having to wait for London Info etc to "renegotiate" (is this some kind of Iranian hostage release thing) a new airways clearance could cause a seriously dangerous situation where one is staying above hazardous weather and one's only options are (a) to descend into it or (b) bust the CAS ahead as its base descends.]]> Chilli Monster Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:13:40 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780721#p780721 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780721#p780721 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A
So - on that basis things will possibly change come end of January next year, when the Manchester centre moves up to, and amalgamates with, Scottish Control at Prestwick.]]> peterh337 Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:02:39 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780719#p780719 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780719#p780719 M609 Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:56:07 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780717#p780717 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780717#p780717 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A
So - do you keep them on their requested route and take them outside occasionally


Personally I would say yes, given that the flight is on it´s planned level, and has not been capped by ATC. The pilot should know that he has planned outside CAS.
Now in practice I suspect we both know that´s not the case all the time. Our MATS says you only have to inform a pilot when he is leaving CAS if in level flight if on flight plan route.

CAS base above FL100 in low terrain areas is a non starter IMHO, since both MIL and air sports activities that need FL100+ are easy to handle with (flexible) seggregated airspace. Sad that the FUA system did not get implemented the way is was intended in the whole of Europe. Too many nations just kept the old system, giving the seggregated airspace new names.

(Funny how the UK Mod "can´t get anything done" in CAS in the UK, and need all the class G, but manage just fine when they go abroad..... :) )]]> Chilli Monster Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:24:01 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780701#p780701 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780701#p780701
M609 wrote:If what the last post is accurate, I´m shocked at poor level of service from my UK colleauges. The general rule in the rest of the civilized world is that a flight that is planned inside CAS, and is on a IFPS accepted FPL is not to be dumped out of CAS unless that´s in the flight plan, or the PIC asks for it!


That's all well and good in theory - unfortunately it doesn't take into account the problem that becomes apparent, that of variable airway bases. Getting from Scotland southwards in a non-pressurised or non-oxygen carrying aircraft during the daytime is a nightmare due on the whole to the Military. It's because of them that the base of CAS is so high and unuseable.

So - do you keep them on their requested route and take them outside occasionally, or do you add another 100 track miles to keep them inside? I agree with you on the stupidity of the policy, but unfortunately, and until someone (as has been said here so many times before) tears up the airspace map and starts from scratch we're scuppered.

ahepburn should think himself lucky - at least he didn't have to renegotiate clearances to re-join CAS after he'd been dumped outside!]]> M609 Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:57:46 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780688#p780688 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780688#p780688 Re: More on popup clearances into Class A
I know of few things that can warrant taking any flight out of CAS without asking the pilot, avoiding imminent collision/loss of separation or severe weather is really the only ones I got. Even then the pilot is to be informed that it is happening, and why ASAP.

I once, not that long ago, heard the following in a conversation with a N-CAA person during a discussion about some airspace matters (rough translation):
Controller: "....they do it like that in the UK, any chance that XXXXX will have the option of doing the same over here...."
N-CAA person: "No chance of us following any cues from the UK on airspace policy, it´s useless....."

Made me smile.... :)]]> ahepburn Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:23:47 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780558#p780558 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=780558#p780558 Confused Foreign Pilot
Guys, flying is about getting from one country to another. One shouldn't need to have intimate local knowledge to navigate a little country like England safely. And this is IFR (or at least I thought it was - I'm beginning to wonder). VFR is apparently an order of magnitude worse, even for the locals. The whole UK system is obviously in need of serious overhaul to bring it in line with the rest of the known world. The sooner it gets "Euopeanised" the better, as far as I can see.]]> peterh337 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:05:29 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765314#p765314 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765314#p765314
However I have never been asked by Paris to descend and on the one occasion I did ask for a descent it was only granted when I said it was due to weather!



Indeed; the airway restrictions between say Shoreham and N France, where going N is much more complicated, seem to be purely CFMU artefacts which are universally ignored by the controllers for any actual flight. I've always had a nearly DCT Shoreham, at any level up to about F150, from say CAN or elsewhere on the French coast.

On the wider question (original post) I was slightly puzzled at London Info's apparent ability to do this, when the last "popup clearance into Class A" thread made it apparently very clear that there was zero chance because the system did not allow for it. Obviously I can see that SITET-EGKA is a lot simpler than flying just W of LHR, but the issue did not seem to be fitting the aircraft into the system; it seemed to be that there was no way to implement the clearance, end of story, without a flight plan IN the system, but in both cases I had an IFR/IFPS FP in the system OK.

Each time something weird like this comes up, I learn a little bit but at the same time I learn that often there is no clear answer.

I would not like to imagine a foreign pilot who filed an IFR FP for say FL070, getting transferred to "London" on 124.60, remaining happily at FL070, and then (not realising that "London" now expects him to be OCAS) doing an impressive CAS bust a few miles later. Or, discovering that he is now OCAS (the base being FL075 intiially) and has to remain OCAS (i.e. descend FL065, 055, etc) until an airways clearance is negotiated for him during which time he might he halfway into some embedded nasties. The point is that this is a trap for those who do not know the curious way the UK system works, which is practically everybody flying IFR around the world in the normal way. The only reason it doesn't happen much (probably) is because most regular IFR traffic flies way high enough to not get into this. Whereas flying across France if you need to climb from FL070 (Class E) to FL150 (Class D) "due weather" you will get handed back to Paris Control and up you go.

I think London Info should tell the pilot that his IFR clearance is now in the bin and he must remain OCAS, very clearly. After all, they can see his squawk (unofficially I know) so they can see he is coming off a Eurocontrol flight.

The best way is to either stick to VFR, OCAS, and deal with whatever is encountered (including clouds - if you are instrument capable ;) ), or fly IFR at some decisive FL like 100+ and then one retains the IFR service the whole way, and can climb above weather as necessary.

I hope that the routing tools situation gets back to what it was last year, when practically anything could be routed.]]> mm_flynn Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:56:38 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765312#p765312 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765312#p765312 io91 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:09:08 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765213#p765213 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765213#p765213
I often fly A34 between ETRAT and DRAKE. To get the FPL accepted you have to file a lower level at LISEU e.g. A34 LISEU/N0165F100 A34 MID.

However I have never been asked by Paris to descend and on the one occasion I did ask for a descent it was only granted when I said it was due to weather!

Regards

Andrew]]> bookworm Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:36:42 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765199#p765199 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765199#p765199 sandy771 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:55:47 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765177#p765177 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765177#p765177
peterh337 wrote:I asked London Info what would happen if I had to ask for a climb to say FL150 due weather and suprisingly they said that they would negotiate an airways clearance with LC. I wonder how this differs from when I last posted on this subject, when I was flying (IIRC) from the IOM, IFR, on an IFPS FP at FL050, but got refused airways entry by Manchester and was b*ggered after that.


I heard that as I was pootling back from LFAT VFR, I wondered why the question :)]]> SwanFIS Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:45:41 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765173#p765173 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765173#p765173
The possible traffic against you at lowish level on that route would be on G27 or out of London City, Biggin, Southend etc routing out through Sector 18 for SW Europe.

A very different kettle of fish compared to your IOM flight, or a low level TMA transit.]]> bookworm Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:00:20 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765128#p765128 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765128#p765128
My guess would be that if you file for FL100+ and then ask for FL050, LC will drop you out of CAS into LI and from then on you won't get back up again.


I wouldn't be so pessimistic. I'm not sure I fully understand the scenario here, but I assume we're in controlled airspace in France, then we drop out at the FIR boundary, then we decide we want to climb again and take our place in the TMA. I can't see a problem with that -- at least we're already known to the TC sector in question i.e. they have a strip for us, we count as their traffic for ATFM purposes, and we'll be roughly on route and on time.]]> peterh337 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:45:21 +0100 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765063#p765063 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=765063#p765063
Normally when I fly abroad I go IFR FL100+ so nobody can doubt the intention, but in the above case I tried a lower level FP because since CFMU changed their validation site to cripple the routing tools ;) I had no way to work out the FL100+ one.]]>